A new camera?

[gazza]

Hi,

I am considering a switch from OSC to mono.

I have an Sbig ST8300C, this is a really nice camera, and I have had zero issues with it, but since I am the centre of a large regional city - Geelong,  Australia, I have become a bit frustrated with colour imaging due light pollution and the resultant gradients that arise. These are made worse since in Geelong, late in the evening, we seem to get a lot of moist air that reduces transparency and reflects the cities light due to a coastal location and onshore breezes.

I figure I would be most productive if I went narrow band - primarily H Alpha...

I have a couple of options:

Get a new mono cam - at the lower end of the price spectrum, keep ST8300c- perhaps combining OSC images with H Alpha.


Sell St8300C, Get new Mono cam have a bit more money to get cam plus filter wheel, filters etc.

Camera choice seems to be:

QHY9
Atik 414EX
Atik 428EX


Cant see much around my price range... More $ is not really an option.

The 414 and 428 are small chips, but have hugely better QE than KAF8300 chips particularly at H Alpha band..... the main difference between them seems to be pixel size

I will be imaging at around 950mm and 1800mm on a C11 using either an f3,3 reducer (don't mind having to crop!), a .7 reducer (Starizona-turns my C11 in to an Edge), and on my Tak TSA120/G11 combo.

So if narrow band is the choice, what would you do.....?? Which camera? Keep the st8300c or get a filter wheel?

cheers

Gary

 

[Earl]

IMO dont worry about the sensiivity issues, you loose a lot of chip and fov, and the 8300 mono is a great chip just down to choosing the right version to suit your budget.

[perfrej]

Seond that. I would never go small chip. You need 5-6u pixels, not smaller, and you need the real estate. Ha and O3 is a nice start if money is tight, then add S2. Filter wheel for sure, and my list of 8300 cameras start with Atik at the bottom, then QSI and Moravian second, and FLI at the top. I have terrible experiences with SBIG and the company path is very sketchy now, so Atik would be a better choice.

/per

[gazza]

Thanks guys,

sounds like the QHY9 may be the go - the other brands are way too expensive for me in Australia.... I was just concerned that the KAF8300 chip is getting very long i the tooth now, whereas the newer Sony chips may have significantly better performance, even though smaller.....(for example the ratio of read noise to full well capacity is much better on the Sony's....) is it worth sacrificing some real estate for the better noise performance and QE?

cheers

Gary

[kingboya]

I have recently taken the plunge with the 8300 chip, second hand, in the qsi 683wsg. It is awesome. Cooling is incredible, easily 40c below ambient, and I am really enjoying the FOV. I upgraded from an Atik 314L, and the great thing is, even though the qsi is more expensive than the 383, it is designed to use 1.25" filters, not the prohibitively expensive 2"!

As a guide, here is a rough and ready M51 15mins RGB each channel and 30min Lum taken at 636mm. Lovely widefield!

[kingboya]

314L version

[ollypenrice]

Your targets in narrowband are nebulae. Galaxies can benefit from Ha but you won't get anything useful in the way of standalone images from the galaxies in Ha. And here's the thing; nebulae are often large on the sky and demand the real estate Per mentions. I wouldn't want a small chip for NB imaging.

Now if you keep your colour camera in order to add Ha to it, your small NB chip won't provide the Ha needed to cover it so either you'll have to mosaic the Ha or crop the OSC image. Adding Ha to OSC does work, no question, but having the same size chip is a big part of the success. This is a cute example of Ha and OSC;

You might describe the Ha contribution as mildly significant!

So in a nutshell I'd sell the OSC and get a bigger mono chip. I'd go for Atik. Note that, on paper, my Atik 11000 is a sluggish performer on Ha. That's on paper, but here's an example of the final result on a target not always considered Ha at all;

You can get the difficult stuff like the Squid in O111 as well;

Olly

[gazza]

Thanks Olly,

I had not actually considered the fact that nebulae required larger fields of view... since ultimately I'll end p doing a mix of imaging targets the. What has been suggested makes a lot of sense. I'll stick with the larger chip...

Is the Atik 383L+  at $2799Aus that much better than a QHY9S at $2650Aus (including filter wheel) ? Adding an aAtik filter wheel brings it to $3600..........

cheers

Gary

[ollypenrice]

Thanks Olly,

Is the Atik 383L+  at $2799Aus that much better than a QHY9S at $2650Aus (including filter wheel) ? Adding an aAtik filter wheel brings it to $3600..........

cheers

Gary

In my opinion, yes, certainly.

Olly

[Earl]

QHY had a fair few issues and Olly is jaded a little by this history, no offence Olly

How good is the dealer that you can get the QHY from as they have improved lots over the years and i know many happy QHY users, although i do not myself.

I went QSI as I wanted everythign in the one tidy box, this comes at a premium i will admit but overall worth it.

[Earl]

If you do go Atik, ( I have had two in the past) get 36mm filters as they are better for vignetting than 1.25 and way cheaper than 2" filters.

[ollypenrice]

QHY had a fair few issues and Olly is jaded a little by this history, no offence Olly

How good is the dealer that you can get the QHY from as they have improved lots over the years and i know many happy QHY users, although i do not myself.

I went QSI as I wanted everythign in the one tidy box, this comes at a premium i will admit but overall worth it.

No offence taken, Earl. It isn't just the QHY history, though, it's also the Atik history. I've had ten years of experience with Atik and have used seven of their cameras commercially, which means they are working for huge numbers of  hours throughout the year. They have been almost perfectly reliable and the two problems I've had were both dealt with like lightning with no messing and no excuses. I mention excuses because two QSI owners I know well have been battling with the firm over a banding issue for 18 months. At last the firm have acknowledged that the problem is widespread and they are looking for a solution which they say they intend to retro fit. But the need for this battle? 

Olly

[Earl]

Olly battles with companys that make astro gear not fit for purpose........ that could be a very long list, probably as long as the time it takes them to admit it too.

[gazza]

Olly battles with companys that make astro gear not fit for purpose........ that could be a very long list, probably as long as the time it takes them to admit it too.

Fortunately in Australia we have a terrific QHY agent. I have had great service from him and I have no doubt that if I decide on the QHY9, I will have great service as well....

I've been looking for technical data that would indicate the Atics are better electronically/noise wise than the QHY's, but at this point what info I've found actually shows that there are no huge differencec between them - at least in the KAF8300 realm.

http://blog.astrofotky.cz/pavelpech/?page_id=782

The read noise figures on some of the Sony chips (not all) looks pretty impressive...

cheers

Gary

[ollypenrice]

Yes, as ever it comes down to Kodak (old name) real estate versus Sony S/N. There's no right answer, only personal preference.

Olly

[kalasinman]

I've heard the QHY has better cooling. Certainly an issue in non-temperate locations.

[swag72]

I have to say that if I was looking for a new camera and was imaging in anything much warmer than the UK, there is no way I'd touch an Atik. I had an Atik 460 for a while out here in Spain. During the summer it was useless and the cooling struggled to get me down to zero degrees some nights.

Now I have a QSI and I am very satisfied with the cooling, I use -10 all year round and so far it's not struggled to get to -10 during the warm months.

[perfrej]

The Atik 460 has a very small body which doesn't leave much in the way of cooling area for the dissipation. the 383 is housed in a much bigger body and cools much better.

/p

[ollypenrice]

Yes, the Atik 11000 and 4000 have a 2 stage Peltie going to 38C below ambient but it's a shame the Sony chipped ones seem to be under-cooled. Could be an issue in Oz.

Olly

[gazza]

Yes, the Atik 11000 and 4000 have a 2 stage Peltie going to 38C below ambient but it's a shame the Sony chipped ones seem to be under-cooled. Could be an issue in Oz.

Olly

The cooling definitely will be an issue - I have  summer nights that don't go below 20degC regularly. My St8300C can get to -15C, but not much more..... It does seem that the Atiks are a little under cooled for my conditions. I've decided to completely rethink what I'm doing....and would like to thank everyone who replied for their constructive input.

cheers

Gary