Observing M4 from UK latitudes

[hgjevans]

A couple of nights ago I happened to wait up for Saturn to appear in a gap between neighbouring houses - conveniently just about on the meridian. The seeing was rubbish, but still it's Saturn - what's not to like? Anyway, after enjoying that I thought I'd have a look for M4, and maybe M80 too. I'd tried to view it a few years ago and failed - not enough aperture, I reckoned - but this time I really hoped for better things. I have to say I was disappointed.

I suppose its low altitude didn't help, and certainly a waxing gibbous moon still above the western horizon was far from ideal, but nevertheless I was expecting something that would more or less rival M13 or M3 for ease of spotting and general observing experience. Well, I barely noticed it at all when I first moved the scope across from Antares to find it. A couple more passes and I realised there was some sort of cluster there, but what I was seeing resembled something more like a very faint version of M37 than one of the brightest globular clusters in the Messier catalogue. I was using my 16mm eyepiece (3.2mm exit pupil) - it disappeared entirely when I tried any more magnification than that.

So, I wonder if that's just normal for UK latitudes (I'm at about 52°) - is it just too low in the sky for really good views? Or maybe it's just normal for M4? I realise it's relatively large, compared to most Messier globulars, but this really didn't look like a globular at all, and certainly not when you consider that it's so close to us. I'd love to know what others' experiences have been.

On a brighter note (literally) the poor seeing did happen to make Antares look like the raging fiery red supergiant it really is - completely unscientific, I know, but I did enjoy the view. The double Acrab was nice too.
 

[JamesF]

I've seen M4 clearly as a glob from home.  I'm a bit further south than you though, and I have quite decent skies to the south.

James

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

M4 is a particularly anaemic globular cluster. It has much lower surface brightness than many others, I find. I have seen it from here, however (lat 53° N). You do need clear skies with low LP. I can spot it in 15x70 binoculars under decent conditions

[hgjevans]

M4 is a particularly anaemic globular cluster. It has much lower surface brightness than many others, I find. I have seen it from here, however (lat 53° N). You do need clear skies with low LP. I can spot it in 15x70 binoculars under decent conditions

'Anaemic' - yes, that's a good word for it, or at least for how it seemed to me. Although James' comments suggest that maybe it can be viewed more as I had expected. Its quoted apparent mag and surface brightness figures certainly led me to think it would be rather more obvious than it was. Wikipedia's page on it says, 'M4 is conspicuous in even the smallest of telescopes as a fuzzy ball of light' - it's fair to say that doesn't reflect my experience of it! Ah well, live and learn. I'm glad I've seen it, but I won't be rushing back for more.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

You might want to try M22 in the same general area. That is a very different kettle of fish.

[hgjevans]

I've got it in mind - just need to wait a few weeks for it to move into the same gap, if observing from home. At the moment it's getting light here by the time it reaches that point. But yes - plenty of treats coming round in the next couple of months. :-)

[dick_dangerous]

M4 suffers from light nights, low altitude and low surface brightness. I've found it once from the park and it appeared very ghostly. I think if you further south you get a much better view and it becomes rather more impressive.

M22, as mentioned, is a very nice cluster and M80 is another bright, compact one. I do have difficulty locating it though... For a challenge try the low down Sagittarius Messiers: M69, 70, 54 and 55.

DD

[almcl]

I also found M4 pretty disappointing (from a dark site at about 52.5°N). 

My note from 2 Aug last year says 'faint glowing grey ball'. 

Certainly it wasn't a nything like as impressive as M22 which I had found by accident two nights earlier at the same site.

[hgjevans]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and experiences - I'm relieved, at least, to know that I'm not alone in being underwhelmed by it. 

[removed word] - I must admit after my disappointment with M4 I didn't even try for M80, as I assumed it would be even less prominent. But from what you say maybe that was a mistake. I shall put it back on my target list for the next clear night. 

[hgjevans]

Hmmm. That 'removed word'  was the first part of dick_dangerous's username. I guess I'm probably not the first to have made that mistake!   

[andrew63]

Back last week, it was a good transparent night down to the horizon, I could just make out M4 in 10x50s.  As others have said it's the low altitude which hinders it - even when it's 'clear' there's a lot of dust in the atmosphere and heat haze to deal with in summer.

Have a look at M80 though, easier to view than M4 and it's in a lovely star field.

andrew

[dick_dangerous]

Hmmm. That 'removed word'  was the first part of dick_dangerous's username. I guess I'm probably not the first to have made that mistake! 

I didn't think it through when I joined the site and added my user name. I might look in to using my real name instead...

DD

*edit* Just checked - the user name is unchangeable but I can at least sign off as Paul. There was a reason why I was using the pseudonym but it isn't relevant any more!

Paul

[kerrylewis]

Don't mention M4 to me! I have tried and tried!

[hgjevans]

I'd love to be able to say keep trying - it's worth it, but I can't!   I guess it probably is, if observing from a good deal further south. And I suppose I'll probably have another look when the moon's not a factor, but other than that I won't be rushing back for more. There's enough great clusters up there, and in better positions, for me to spend too much time on the ones that are evidently a little bit too elusive for my local conditions.

[Walshie79]

I find M4 very difficult in 25x70 bins from the UK, have only seen it twice- strangely one of them was in twilight. It should be easy as its fairly bright and close to Antares, but often I look in the right spot and it's not there. The times I have seen it it was obvious, so why is it so often invisible? It must be particularly sensitive to horizon haze or something. Never seen M80 at all, though I've not looked closely, it's one on My list for this summer.

M19 which is a similar declination I find quite easy, but it's about 2 mags fainter than M4. Bizarre.

[Thonolan]

It's about 12 degrees higher here from Spain, which certainly helps—but M4 is kind of a dwarf, anemic globular indeed. But that makes it easier to resolve into stars and show a fairly satisfying view. Nothing like M13 or M5 anyway, even in photos.

[Walshie79]

Time to bring this up again- been out tonight with the bins, Antares due south, clear, moon present but over in the east. And being June it's technically twilight all night.

Could I see M4? Could I hell. There was nothing there, I swear it's even weirder than M33 when it comes to visibility. Scanned the area to catch a glow like I do with M33, still nothing. But M80 did reveal itself as a small blob with averted vision, and the fairly large globs M10 and M12 were clearly visible. All these are fainter than M4, M80 by some way.

[BeanerSA]

Wow! 12^o above the horizon! That sucks for you guys. That's a real shame, it's a nice little glob. It's currently passing within about 13^o of the zenith where I am, I just thought you'd like to know that.........

[hgjevans]

 It's currently passing within about 13^o of the zenith where I am, I just thought you'd like to know that.........

Aaarrrrggghhhh!   I'll just have to console myself with M13 near the zenith insted.  

Actually I had another look at M4 a couple of weeks back when there was no moon to interfere, and it was a tad better but still nothing to write home about. 

[Paul73]

It is possible to get a "proper glob" view from 52° ish (my back garden). BUT, nights which are moonless, still enough, dark enough and properly clear to the horizon are few and far between.......

So, keep an eye out, and if it looks clear, have a go.

Paul

[hgjevans]

I'm sure I'll be having another crack at it now the moon is clearing out of the way, and I've still got to nail down M80 while the opportunity is there. Tonight looks like it could be clear enough to be worth a try.

[Walshie79]

Had another go tonight and I could just see it in the binoculars as a very indistinct patch, but it was only definitely there with averted vision. It was harder than M101 is when it's high up on a dark night.

Yet I could hold M19 with direct vision, and it clearly looked like a globular.

[hgjevans]

I found M80 this time, but M4 was nowhere to be seen.  Oh well - win some, lose some. I went off to enjoy M13 high up, and a few other little treats.