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New NEQ6 PRO - any advice from experienced users of this mount for imaging :)


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Hello,

I've been working with a Vixen GP2 mount with skywatcher motors finder guiding 2-3 min subs... after many many mistakes OTA's and various other stuff I've decided to get myself an NEQ6 for my imaging set up, it will be carrying my Vixen ED81 S (which I love) with a canon 1200d and an Altair 60mm finder guider around 5-6KG total maybe less.

Whilst not being a massive fan of Skywatcher for £1000 in my opinion you can't really match the NEQ6, tried and tested with tons of supporting software like EQMOD.

I tried it out for the first time last night the pointing accuracy seems to be fantastic, better than a Nexstar 6se I had.

Any advice from experienced users of this mount for imaging would be really appreciated, pec advice, alignment, use the handset... or plug the computer straight into the mount and use EQMOD...? :)

For my guide camera I use a Neximage 5 so it has to go usb to the laptop... then I use a HItec usb to st4 back to the mount, do I still need to use this If I'm plugging the laptop straight into the mount?...

Thanks in advance for your help and clear skies !!

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This set up should work fine- you need to pay a least double to improve on this mount. The EQ6 can be 'fine tuned' to make it better than stock- but not worth bothering unless you hit difficulties. 

Ok thanks, they must be good if you've bought 3 !

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You'll need a suitable EQDIR connector to go between the USB port on the laptop and the handset port on the mount to use EQMOD. It converts the USB voltages to lower TTL voltages. Don't use a standard USB to serial cable, even though the handset port is a standard 9 pin D type serial cable you will fry the controller board if you do. HITEC sell one via many retailers or you can make one yourself with a few parts following instructions on the EQMOD site.

The alternative is to use the handset in 'PC Direct' mode where it just converts voltages in a similar manner to the EQDIR unit. EQMOD guys warn that they don't support it as they have no access to know what the handset is doing, but many people report it works. Bear in mind that the handset is 'dumb' in this mode and you do everything in terms of setup via EQMOD. A common mistake is to do the polar alignment and star alignment via the handset and the switch to EQMOD which won't work. All the brains is either in the handset or in the EQMOD software and they don't talk to each other so pick one method for each session.

You probably want to get the hang of everything before thinking about PEC. When you are ready EQMOD has an AutoPEC feature that records the PEC curve as you are guiding via your guide software (using ASCOM pulse guiding) and once ready it will just start applying PEC without you having to do anything else. Again documents are on the EQMOD site. You can also use separate software to prepare PEC curves such as PECPrep. You capture the raw data from guiding logs, e.g. using PHD guiding.

Would also reccomend you join the Yahoo EQMOD group as updated software is released there frequently, whereas the main site only has stable versions which are updated less often.

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You'll need a suitable EQDIR connector to go between the USB port on the laptop and the handset port on the mount to use EQMOD. It converts the USB voltages to lower TTL voltages. Don't use a standard USB to serial cable, even though the handset port is a standard 9 pin D type serial cable you will fry the controller board if you do. HITEC sell one via many retailers or you can make one yourself with a few parts following instructions on the EQMOD site.

The alternative is to use the handset in 'PC Direct' mode where it just converts voltages in a similar manner to the EQDIR unit. EQMOD guys warn that they don't support it as they have no access to know what the handset is doing, but many people report it works. Bear in mind that the handset is 'dumb' in this mode and you do everything in terms of setup via EQMOD. A common mistake is to do the polar alignment and star alignment via the handset and the switch to EQMOD which won't work. All the brains is either in the handset or in the EQMOD software and they don't talk to each other so pick one method for each session.

You probably want to get the hang of everything before thinking about PEC. When you are ready EQMOD has an AutoPEC feature that records the PEC curve as you are guiding via your guide software (using ASCOM pulse guiding) and once ready it will just start applying PEC without you having to do anything else. Again documents are on the EQMOD site. You can also use separate software to prepare PEC curves such as PECPrep. You capture the raw data from guiding logs, e.g. using PHD guiding.

Would also reccomend you join the Yahoo EQMOD group as updated software is released there frequently, whereas the main site only has stable versions which are updated less often.

Thanks for that, very helpful! I ordered the Hitec astro lead with the mount from FLO. I need to learn the EQMOD software now, I'll join the Yahoo group.

So I guide with PHD and EQMOD can do the pec from that... very clever !

Nice to see someone in Essex.

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is it possible to connect from laptop to the handcontroller with a USB/RS232 interface, and then drive the mount from PHD that way via Ascom pulseguiding, rather than by using EQDIR and EQMod ?

That's the way I've been doing it with my current mount, and I've got a new AZ-EQ6GT on order which I'd prefer to use the same way.

Is the ‘EQMOD ASCOM EQ5/6’ the appropriate Ascom driver for this mount ?

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Yes that is the second option I described above, using the handset in PC direct mode with EQMOD (specifically the EQASCOM driver). I'm not aware of a means to use the handset in 'normal' mode along with PC Software, but I have never needed to so don't take that as the last word!

The EQMOD software provides an on screen control panel that replaces the handset functions and adds many more, plus acts as an ASCOM hub so you can connect multiple bits of software to it to monitor and control the scope. So I have PHD connected for guiding, Stellarium (via StellariumScope) to point the telescope at targets, AstroTortilla to do plate solving and pointing correction, plus APT drives my cameras and also connects to allow fine adjustments to the mount if desired.

One really useful addition is a wireless gamepad controller which can be used to adjust scope pointing, slew rates, etc. It is pretty necessary when doing the EQMOD polar alignment routine as otherwise you have to keep jumping from polarscope to laptop screen and back. The need for one is the only downside vs. a handset, but there are many more upsides. You can get a cheap wired one, or a more expensive wireless one.

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is it possible to connect from laptop to the handcontroller with a USB/RS232 interface, and then drive the mount from PHD that way via Ascom pulseguiding, rather than by using EQDIR and EQMod ?

That's the way I've been doing it with my current mount, and I've got a new AZ-EQ6GT on order which I'd prefer to use the same way.

Is the ‘EQMOD ASCOM EQ5/6’ the appropriate Ascom driver for this mount ?

The EQMOD ASCOM driver for the HEQ5/EQ6 is an appropriate driver for the AZEQ6-GT but if you really don't want to use EQMOD the handset serial port will also work with the unified celestron ascom driver (no need to put the handcontroller into PC-Direct mode for this - it should just work). However the level of celestron protocol support provided via the handcontroller port is minimal (essentially just goto) and I don't know if it extends to pulse guiding.

Chris.

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The EQMOD ASCOM driver for the HEQ5/EQ6 is an appropriate driver for the AZEQ6-GT but if you really don't want to use EQMOD the handset serial port will also work with the unified celestron ascom driver (no need to put the handcontroller into PC-Direct mode for this - it should just work). However the level of celestron protocol support provided via the handcontroller port is minimal (essentially just goto) and I don't know if it extends to pulse guiding.

Chris.

Could you please explain pulse guiding.

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The EQMOD ASCOM driver for the HEQ5/EQ6 is an appropriate driver for the AZEQ6-GT but if you really don't want to use EQMOD the handset serial port will also work with the unified celestron ascom driver (no need to put the handcontroller into PC-Direct mode for this - it should just work). However the level of celestron protocol support provided via the handcontroller port is minimal (essentially just goto) and I don't know if it extends to pulse guiding.

Chris.

Thanks, I think that answers my question - yes, I'm currently using the unified Celestron driver into the handset without it being in PC Direct mode - that does support pulse guiding and works fine with PHD (and with Redshift, my planetarium software), so good to know I can continue to do that with minimal changes.  I should probably stop being a luddite and look at Eqmod too though !

@rharrison - just a quick attempt to answer your question - as you can tell by now, there are several methods of connecting PC to mount - the direct way, that a lot of people use for guiding is via ST4, ie a guidecamera plugged into laptop and also guidecamera plugged into mount via ST4 cable - the laptop send the guiding commands to the camera which sends a hardware monitored direct signal to the mount's motors, move at x rate, the camera times that pulse itself directly.  The more abstracted way of sending pulses now is via Ascom - Ascom is just a protocol really for supporting communication between peripherals and programmes - each new device will have an Ascom driver to install with it, and each programme will know how to use the Ascom interface, so in effect they can talk to each other without knowing any real details about each other except that they talk a common language.  In earlier versions of Ascom, any attempt to send a guide pulse, say 'move E  at guidespeed for 10 ms' would be timed by software, which is subject to software lags, interrupts, etc etc and wouldn't be able to guarantee the 10ms pulse (in this case), which is why Ascom guiding wasn't very popular initially.  Nowadays though, Ascom implementations that do support pulseguiding will take the whole command and use a hardware timed 10ms and get it right.  Anyway - geek-out, it's not something you really need to worry about, all the above-mentioned ways of connecting will work just fine.

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Thanks, I think that answers my question - yes, I'm currently using the unified Celestron driver into the handset without it being in PC Direct mode - that does support pulse guiding and works fine with PHD (and with Redshift, my planetarium software), so good to know I can continue to do that with minimal changes.  I should probably stop being a luddite and look at Eqmod too though !

@rharrison - just a quick attempt to answer your question - as you can tell by now, there are several methods of connecting PC to mount - the direct way, that a lot of people use for guiding is via ST4, ie a guidecamera plugged into laptop and also guidecamera plugged into mount via ST4 cable - the laptop send the guiding commands to the camera which sends a hardware monitored direct signal to the mount's motors, move at x rate, the camera times that pulse itself directly.  The more abstracted way of sending pulses now is via Ascom - Ascom is just a protocol really for supporting communication between peripherals and programmes - each new device will have an Ascom driver to install with it, and each programme will know how to use the Ascom interface, so in effect they can talk to each other without knowing any real details about each other except that they talk a common language.  In earlier versions of Ascom, any attempt to send a guide pulse, say 'move E  at guidespeed for 10 ms' would be timed by software, which is subject to software lags, interrupts, etc etc and wouldn't be able to guarantee the 10ms pulse (in this case), which is why Ascom guiding wasn't very popular initially.  Nowadays though, Ascom implementations that do support pulseguiding will take the whole command and use a hardware timed 10ms and get it right.  Anyway - geek-out, it's not something you really need to worry about, all the above-mentioned ways of connecting will work just fine.

Thanks for that explanation really appreciated.

I'm now connected directly to my mount via the Hitec usb to serial cable using EQMOD and Stellarium to point it at stuff.

I haven't aligned it because it's on the dining room table entered the location and a few bits but it seems to be pointing in all the right directions !.... Is this the encoders knowing where it is from park... very clever !

Can't seem to find options to align with stars in EQMOD like you find on the handset quite a lot to learn with this software... but it's fantastic! Is there anything else you think might be worth mentioning to someone just starting with an NEQ6 and EQMOD, when I sold someone my Nexstar 6 SE I told them to get a reticuled filter or eyepiece for more accurate alignment stuff like that...

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Thanks for that explanation really appreciated.

I'm now connected directly to my mount via the Hitec usb to serial cable using EQMOD and Stellarium to point it at stuff.

I haven't aligned it because it's on the dining room table entered the location and a few bits but it seems to be pointing in all the right directions !.... Is this the encoders knowing where it is from park... very clever !

Can't seem to find options to align with stars in EQMOD like you find on the handset quite a lot to learn with this software... but it's fantastic! Is there anything else you think might be worth mentioning to someone just starting with an NEQ6 and EQMOD, when I sold someone my Nexstar 6 SE I told them to get a reticuled filter or eyepiece for more accurate alignment stuff like that...

The NEQ6 doesn't have a encoders unlike later models. The mount controller board just counts the number of steps the RA or Dec stepper motor has taken clockwise / antclockwise since startup and reports that back to the handset or EQMOD. They are responsible for working out where the mount is pointing and then issuing commands to move the motors a number of steps for a GOTO or similar.

Once the software has at least one alignment star synced it can of course relate the stepper motor positions to RA and Dec. Prior to the first sync, EQMOD relies on the starting position of the mount, the home position. This is pointing north with counterweights down. Documentation on the site describes how to find this using a spirit level and gravity. Once located I used some stickers and a fine pen on each axis to mark it. Line up the marks and you are at home position. Depending on your polar alignment and accuracy of home position the first GOTO will be a bit off target.

If using Stellarium and Stellariumscope, select a star in the planetarium, hit ctrl-1 to GOTO it. Then centre the star in the eyepiece or camera using EQMOD (gamepad helps here again) and then hit ctrl-3 in the planetarium to issue a sync. You can add multiple stars for more accuracy. Again there is a document on the site describing the pointing strategy. Worth a read so you know how best to get accurate GOTOs.

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Sorry for going OT but I see in your photo that your imaging scope is mounted with guide scope rings. You need to be sure the OTA is absolutely parallel to the mount or you'll struggle with polar alignment and imaging. You should get the proper tube rings

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Not to worry, you've chosen a solid mount that will last ages.

Pretty simple to operate, just set it up, polar align it, then a 3 star calibration and youre good to go. Don't get too tied up in PEC and all that stuff as it doesnt really apply if autoguiding (if it aint broke, dont tamper!), just get out there and enjoy it! :)

The only thing ive done to mine is update the firmware, and replace the ALT bolts with something a little less bendy.

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I was having a think about the connectivity of these Skywatcher mounts, and it started to bug me...

For a piece of software that uses Ascom (eg PHD, planetarium software, Astrotortilla etc etc), that software doesn't need to know anything at all about what it connects to - it just launches the Ascom chooser, has the user select his/her device, and that's it.  PHD for e.g wouldn't know any different whether it is connected to a real telescope, a simulator, EQMod or whatever else.

The device should come with an Ascom driver, which once installed, makes the device capable of being connected to as an Ascom client and able to execute commands.

EQMod is actually a synthetic Ascom client - PHD or whatever connects to it as if it is a real hardware client, but in fact it is an extra layer of software adding in lots of extra functionality (lots of people like it, but I prefer my handset !).  When you choose your device in PHD you are in this case choosing EQMod as a synthetic device, which in turn interfaces with the real device.

The downloadable drivers you see on the EQMod website (not the Ascom website) are not in fact Ascom drivers, but downstream drivers such that EQMod can talk to the device in its own protocol.

So the fact that the Skywatcher mounts seem to ship without their own Ascom drivers and can't be operated directly but instead need a second layer of software in EQMod in order to operate, means that they are not actually Ascom-compliant mounts !  I don't see why this should be, especially since you obviously can use them as though they are Ascom devices using that universal Celestron driver (note, I think the latest Celestron driver doesn't work with them any more, you need the old one!).  They really should be shipped with a Skywatcher-developed ascom driver.

And another thing - why so hard to connect ?  You shouldn't need to have a USB/RS232 connector (RS232 - no-one uses that any more !) that plugs awkwardly into the handset.  Nor should you have to buy a £25 EQDir dongle to connect.  Why isn't there a simple USB connection ?  In fact why aren't they even wifi-enabled, my XBox and printer are, and so's my fridge probably.

Sorry, off-topic rant over.

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Sorry but you've got it wrong. EQMOD is not at all a synthetic. It is a full and propper ASCOM driver originally written using ASCOM's own template project for a compliant ASCOM driver. With resoect to ASCOM interfaces it is no different in its design and implementation from any other ASCOM driver (including the celestron one) like all ASCOM drivers EQMOD is a sever not a client. PHD,stellariumscope, CDC etc are all clients of the driver that request services to access the mount.

There are various means to physically make a connection to the mount. RS232-ttl is one option but usb-ttl is another as is bluetooth-ttl. All have there applications. Within the industrial control world RS232 is by no means an obsolete standard and provides a rugged reliable link over much longer distances than usb.

I'm sorry to say skywatcher/synta have never put much effort into pc control or automation but presumably are happy with the increased sales EQMOD has brought them over the last eight years. Whether you like EQMOD or not we have at least demonstrated what can be done with ASCOM yet skywatcher have in all that time made no efforts to pick up on our trail blazing and make an ASCOM driver themselves. When you look at ASCOM drivers you will find that by far the majority (even some now offically adopted by manufacturers) have been written by independent hobbyists and not by the 'industry' itself.

Chris.

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I think folks tend to over estimate the capabilites and motivations of the likes of skywatcher/synta. Producing cheap mechanical designs may be their strongpoint but to be honest their firmware and hardware designs haven't seem to have progressed much over the past 9 years I've been into astronomy.

The sad truth is that when you buy a skywatcher goto mount you are getting a 'system' that is only designed,and indeed marketed, for stand alone use only. When it comes to automation/integration with other hardware and software, skywatcher themselves offer nothing. Of course fighting against the limitations of your hardware is part and parcel of practical astronomy and is an aspect that some folks quite enjoy - that's probably why skywatcher are able to get away with it.

Chris

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One of the main reasons I bought the NEQ6 is because of all support, the 'hobbyist built software' stuff like EQMOD but now I've had it a few days the actual mount quality is pretty shocking... the polar scope cover is almost laughable, does the job I suppose, holds the weight, relatively cheap... but compared to the likes of Vixen it's not great. :rolleyes:

Completely agree with the turnip about a usb port

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Completely agree with the turnip about a usb port

For what its worth Skywatcher's new AZEQ5-GT mount comes with a built in USB port but I wouldn't take this as an indication that skywatcher have at last "seen the light" and made a PC friendly mount.  It would seem that skywacher have only provided the USB port as a means to apply motor controller firmware upgrades - No one has managed to use that port to actually control the mount, be it using EQMOD or celestron drivers.. Those selling this product seem happy to list the USB port as one of the mounts key features and as a consequenct there are a few disapointed customers out there.

Chris.

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