Inside of new EPs look like a snowglobe!

[quesne]

I recently took possession of a set of brand new EPs.  These are decent quality EPs (not bottom line), which are very highly rated on this and other sites.  

On my first night of observing, I had the moon centered on my primary, and so quite a bit of bright light coming through the focuser hole.  As I was slipping one of the EPs into my focuser, I caught a glimpse of the glass elements while the EP was slightly off-axis.

To my surprise, the inside of the EP looked like a snowglobe!  The defect is very visible on 3 of the new EPs, while the other two are pretty clear.  The defect is in the glass, glue or coating.  It is not surface dust.  I found only one other topic that describes this, so I am curious whether many other people have experienced this.  I contacted the vendor and the EPs are packed up ready to go back for their inspection.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this will have a happy ending.  The vendor has a great reputation for customer service.  I don't want to create any problems, so for the moment, I will reserve the vendor name and EP brand.  

Any and all comments would be appreciated :-)

[ScottS]

Looks pretty bad in those photos.

Yes, send back if brand new.

[Chris]

Never seen that before and I've had my fair share of eyepieces. Hope you get it sorted out ok

[paul mc c]

If it is a reputable dealer there should'nt be a problem getting it replaced,i wouldnt accept a new eyepiece in that state,i think i have an idea what eyepiece it may be,and possibly the dealer and he is a good guy.

[russ.will]

I dunno what you're worrying about - M3 looks superb in that bottom one....

I generally try not to shine bright lights down/at/through scopes and eyepieces as it just engenders paranoia, but those are definitely not right.

Out of interest, how long had you been using them for (presumably happily?) before you noticed this defect?

Russell

[quesne]

Out of interest, how long had you been using them for (presumably happily?) before you noticed this defect?

I only received them about 3 weeks ago.  We had a bad streak of weather and skies, so I've had 2 or 3 nights of observing since then.

I first noticed the problem last week.  It was the first night of observation with these EPs.  I contacted the vendor immediately and they were quick to respond (and very accommodating).

[quesne]

The retailer received my EPs a few days ago, and I've been in touch with them since.  Here is the basic story:

1.  The 5 EPs I bought are Paradigm Dual ED (also called BST Explorer, Starguider BST and Orion Epic II ED).  I bought a full set minus the 25 mm.

2.  After inspecting them, the retailer has told me that the scattering is due to fine dust particles trapped in between the elements.  They said that these (and other) EPs are not manufactured in clean-room environments, and so fine dust like this is to be expected.

3.  They pulled other much more expensive EPs off the shelf and observed pretty much the exact same thing.  In fact, they provided a photograph of one high-end waterproof eyepiece (attached).  The photo reveals the same snow globe effect that I see in the new Paradigms.

4.  The retailer is happy to give me a refund or let me keep the EPs.  I am perfectly satisfied with those two options (it's not their fault).

I must admit, though, to some surprise that this is normal QC on the Paradigm Dual ED production line.  When I first saw the snowglobe effect in the Paradigms, I looked at all 3 of my 2" Celestron ELUX eyepiece as well as my Baader Hyperion Zoom.  They were all pretty much crystal clear.

So....Am I being too demanding?  Should I keep the eyepieces and just be happy with life?  Maybe I should clean them out myself?  Or should I just get a refund and move on to another brand?  What to do?

Comments, advice or a smack on the head.  All are (more or less) welcome :-)

[John]

Sounds like you are told a lot of nonsense by your dealer. Eyepieces and scopes bought new should have pristine optics. All the ones that I have been loaned to review on this forum have had clean and dust free optics, even the low cost ones.

Your own evidence from your other eyepieces tells you this. If the dealer cannot supply replacement Paradigms that have clean optics I'd get a full refund and take your business elsewhere.

[Tonynexevo925]

I wouldn't be happy to keep them. You should return them imo.

[LukeSkywatcher]

I'd not be happy or settle for those EP's. Send them back and get a refund. 

2.  After inspecting them, the retailer has told me that the scattering is due to fine dust particles trapped in between the elements.  They said that these (and other) EPs are not manufactured in clean-room environments, and so fine dust like this is to be expected.

 

My BS detector is doing over time. John is right, you are being fed a load of cack by the dealer. Get a full refund and take your business elsewhere.

[Jonimac25]

Send them back! It sounds like the supplier is feeding you a load of rubbish!

[damnut]

Hi There,

Sorry about your poor experience. I have never seen an eyepiece with that much contamination. I would be tempted to return an ask for a replacement set without prejudice. I have owned a few BST's and they have come out of the box in a pristine condition.

Buying new kit should be a pleasure, your experience falls way short of that.

[Jonimac25]

Send them back! It sounds like the supplier is feeding you a load of rubbish!

[Reeny]

I have seen this "snowglobe effect" with cheap and nasty eyepieces I have re-assembled myself after tinkering.

It was easy enough to take them to bits again, clean, and re-assemble.

I wouldn't expect this from factory fresh new equipment.

And I wouldn't be happy if someone told me it was my problem they were dirty.

I have re-checked my EP case against a halogen light just to make sure.

Revelation Plossl = clean

Revelation superview 42mm = clean

Revelation 3-element 2.5x Barlow = clean

Maxvision 24mm and 16mm = clean

Explore Scientific 82 degree Argon = clean

6mm Televue Delos = clean

Maybe they are refurbed customer returns, or factory rejects.

Money back, lesson learn't, buy from elsewhere.

[Ruud]

So....Am I being too demanding?  Should I keep the eyepieces and just be happy with life?  Maybe I should clean them out myself?  Or should I just get a refund and move on to another brand?  What to do?

Of course you're not too demanding. These particular eyepieces should never have passed QC. Better ask your money back.

[russ.will]

Having read your last post (and despite my earlier flippant reply) I repaired to the boot room where my EPs are stored, with a multi-LED torch and just for good measure a Cree XML bike headlight - That is one very, very bright light.

I pulled my three waterproof EPs and very not waterproof TV Plossls 'off the shelf' (two are second hand and so have been out in the world for a while) and started shining lights. This caused me to clean the end elements of all, not least because I noticed a fair bit of eyelash grease on the 15mm Plossls. Having done so, I can see precisely zero contamination internally in my three waterproof EPs - The ES100s. I do mean nothing and I inspected them through a inverted Canon nifty-fifty as magnifier. The TV Plossls all showed some.

But - having replicated what you have done - I would say that your first, third and the dealer's photo, do look like what I was seeing before I cleaned all of the EPs. More to the point, having laboured attention on the 20mm ES100 (biggest glass areas = easiest to clean) to a point where zero dust was visible under the light of either torch or headlight, shining on to the EP, it still showed some surface contamination on the end elements when projected through it. Holding it up to a room light did not show this.

Now, microscopic, invisible particles abound in the atmosphere indoors and out and they start landing the moment you stop cleaning, so I would suggest it is impossible to ever arrive at a situation where you couldn't illuminate such contamination with critically unfavourable lighting. I would also note that as I applied the more point source of the two lights from a greater distance I was able (before and after cleaning) to replicate the effect of your second and third photos where the contamination appears constrained within the EP, presumably due to the light within the EP following a more natural light path - Somebody more experienced than I can probably give a better explanation why/how - But there is definitely no contamination inside the EP.

I also seem to recall making the mistake of shining an LED torch through a Skywatcher Panaview Erfle a few years ago, that I thought was clean, prior to sale and nearly dropping my load as a result. To be fair, that line of EPs is about a resistant to a breeze as a collinder. No matter, having disassembled, cleaned with Baader Wonder Fluid and a pile of virgin lens tissues - finessing the end result with a rocket air blower - the re-assembled Panaview still looked like I'd dumped a vaccum cleaner bag into it. It gave great views all the same.

So, my advice is, by all means return the EPs if the dealer is happy for you to do so, but most of all, stop shining bright lights through things. I'll be interested to see if responses to your CN thread differ, but I'm not sure what line of EPs I could advise as an alternative that won't show such a phenomenon, if not immediately, then pretty shortly after.

Russell

[bingevader]

Ooh Russell, you almost had me convinced there for a moment.

So much so, that I thought I'd have to give it a go myself!

Nice bright 9 LED torch, 3 EPs picked at random, not cleaned for a few months.

6mm SPL, 26mm plossl and the 32mm Skywatcher Colander.

BOWF and cloth.

"Snow globe effect" prior to cleaning, but definitely not after.

Send 'em back!

[russ.will]

Brighter light further away or point source. Either in a darker room to promote contrast. It's not hard to recreate the effect. Add in a 6 element EP with ED glass produced to hit a price point (and let's be fair; these BST clones hit a lot of different price points) and I'm pretty sure that under unfavourable conditions a number of budget EPs could be made to look like this.

Russell

[SpaceWalker]

So, my advice is, by all means return the EPs if the dealer is happy for you to do so, but most of all, stop shining bright lights through things. I'll be interested to see if responses to your CN thread differ, but I'm not sure what line of EPs I could advise as an alternative that won't show such a phenomenon, if not immediately, then pretty shortly after.

+100!!!

 " stop shining bright lights through things"  that's a really nice advise, I'm joining it... shining a flashlight into the OTA of my Dob usually pisses me off and tempting to wash the primary mirror immediately... so I prohibited myself even think about that

a suggestion - buy only Ar/N2 purged eyepieces, if you'll see a similar dust in them it all should be outside and you'll be able to clean it up   .

[Dave In Vermont]

Agreed with Spacewalker. Shining a torch/flashlight on optics in telescopes, etc. no matter how clean - will many times create a view like a World War I battlefield. Yet the telescope works perfectly!

Stick with ambient light.

Clear Skies,

Dave

[bingevader]

Whilst I agree that shining bright lights on or through your optics does make things worse, I cannot reproduce the OPs photos in my EPs.

I don't religiously clean mine, but even the dirty ones don't look like that, the clean ones certainly don't.

After all, these should be brand new pristine EPs, not snow globes.

[Dave In Vermont]

Agreed! They should go back regardless. I've never seen a sight as bad in a new EP. And I wouldn't accept a replacement-set unless I was certain they were from a different lot / production-run.

Clear Skies,

Dave

[quesne]

Thanks very much to everyone for the advice and for getting out the eyepiece cases and LED flashlights :-)  I appreciate your being so generous with your time.

Just a quick update on this.  I took your advice and requested a full refund.  It was processed promptly and courteously :-)