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Monochrome/Debayered DSLRs

Aeseir

By Aeseir
in Discussions - Cameras

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Aeseir

Aeseir

Posted
Posted

Hi guys,

I am looking to up the ante on my astrophotography so i got a few questions for you.

1. any place that sells them (can be anywhere in world as I'm outside of UK)

2. any experience with monochrome dslr and if so how did it turn out for you

Thanks for the assistance ahead of time.

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MarsG76

MarsG76

Posted
Posted

Mono will only be useful if you're doing long narrowband imaging, even then it's benefit is limited. Mod your 40D and get your subs into the +15 minute range through NB filters, later selectively select the channels to use while processing. Use low gain and long exposures, my 30 minute and longer subs do not have as much of a noise problem as it is claimed to be the case on uncooled DSLRs. 

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kalasinman

kalasinman

Posted
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From what I've read here and elsewhere, the advantage of de-bayered mono is huge if one goes NB. The matrix passes only 25% of each color (1 red, 1 blue, 2 green) falling on each pixel, so subs take 3-4x as long to achieve same signal as without the matrix. Shorter subs or much more data per sub. If one can make such a large reduction in sub length, one can fit in many more in each session. The shorter exposure times mean tracking/guiding is much less critical.

DSLRs have relatively huge sensors compared to most CCDs, thus the attraction. However, it's a difficult process, sometimes resulting in a damaged sensor. The results are great. One is still left without cooling. I believe Herra in Finland does modding and de-bayering on D5100 and other Nikons. FYI some Nikon models offer the Sony Exmore sensor (D5100, D7000) which when given a firmware mod , then de-bayered and cooled can give amazing results like here   http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/236643-nikon-d5100-monotec-narrow-bands/

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Thalestris24

Thalestris24

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Posted

Hi

I don't think JTW do them anymore. I bought one a year ago but it had a fault. After over 6 months trying they were unable to replace it. I eventually got a refund. Herra (in Finland) on here was doing them. He was debayering a 550d and a Nikon, though I don't know the end result.

It's a great pity that decent sized cooled mono ccd's aren't a lot cheaper...

Louise

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kalasinman

kalasinman

Posted
Posted

Just IM'd with Herra. He seems open to doing for others. Indicates he may have a finished d5100 for sale. He also indicated he would de-bayer sensors for others as well.

For me, Baader mod seems worthwhile (as I have the glass), but I'd have a hard time not going to a cooled CCD, even if it means a year or more delay. Ambient is around 25c here during most sessions. Better color from increased well depth and a much shorter flange to chip distance means getting a wheel in there would be easier too.

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Thalestris24

Thalestris24

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It's a pretty invasive process which, I must say, makes me nervous. Interesting that JTW have stopped trying. Looking at what's involved I can't say I'm surpised.

Olly

Well, that's what they told me... It certainly doesn't seem commercially viable. I don't think they are doing their deep cooled dslrs either - they seem to be offering kits now instead of ready built.

Louise

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Herra Kuulapaa

Herra Kuulapaa

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Posted

Hi

I don't think JTW do them anymore. I bought one a year ago but it had a fault. After over 6 months trying they were unable to replace it. I eventually got a refund. Herra (in Finland) on here was doing them. He was debayering a 550d and a Nikon, though I don't know the end result.

It's a great pity that decent sized cooled mono ccd's aren't a lot cheaper...

Louise

Hi,

Monochrome mods are risky operations. There will be failures every once in a while and it tends make the total cost of this hobby high.

I have successfully modified many different models Canon 1200D, 550D, 600D, 6D and Nikon D3100, D5100, D7000 and the latest D600, mainly in a testing sense and to provide information to the community. And I have ruined many sensors during the way. In generally Canons are easier, but they're also easy to be ruined if worked too hard. Nikon models are harder and Nikon full frame ones are exceptionally hard, but it's easier to make fully uniform sensor surface and get perfect flats with them.

Based on my experience I don't doubt at all it isn't commercially viable to make them at JTW. It's a bit sad because mono DSLRs are great in astroimaging providing huge resolution and large field of view:

Sydan.jpg

Nikon D5100 - 6x10min Ha

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Herra Kuulapaa

Herra Kuulapaa

Posted
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Hi,

Yes, that was taken early this year during very cold weather. Issue was that the lenses were too tight that time and of course cold made it even worse.

I just loosened the lens packs after that and the roundness returned, but some nebulas/channels were already imaged so I need to revisit them this winter.

By that easiness I wrote above about the Canon being easier than Nikon, I was actually meaning relative hardness. It's not easy job and makes my back and neck hurt, but one can get used to it. It's very interesting though and I've noticed a clear difference between sensor generations. My prediction is that there won't be many full frame monochrome cameras because of the risk involved and the price tends to get so high that cooled CCDs are on the same level. I have two dead D600 sensors on my desk you know ;)

BTW, I have a brand new monochrome Canon 1200D kit with clip on 12nm Ha filter on my desk if someone is interested testing it.

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Macavity

Macavity

Posted
Posted

Having just purchased a EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM lens for wide field VIDEO 

Astronomy. (Positively my last "scope" purchase, guv!). I notice TS sell these:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/index.php/cat/c17_DSLR-Cameras-and-Accessories.html (Astro version Canon bodies)

They also offer a modding service. I have seen one modding video: Despite

a "certain facility" with electronics hardware, I thought "Not for me" though. :p

But I realise (even with only a lens!) I have missed having a decent SLR (sic)

camera around. I suspect I will purchase a modest Canon body (But which?).

Sticking with VA, trying not to get seduced by this "classical imaging" thing! :D

I think I might be more tempted if there were a *hardware* (e.g. filter?) way of

un-upgrading an Astro Canon camera for my projected "normal" use. But!   ;)

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Thalestris24

Thalestris24

Posted
Posted

Having just purchased a EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM lens for wide field VIDEO 

Astronomy. (Positively my last "scope" purchase, guv!). I notice TS sell these:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/index.php/cat/c17_DSLR-Cameras-and-Accessories.html (Astro version Canon bodies)

They also offer a modding service. I have seen one modding video: Despite

a "certain facility" with electronics hardware, I thought "Not for me" though. :p

But I realise (even with only a lens!) I have missed having a decent SLR (sic)

camera around. I suspect I will purchase a modest Canon body (But which?).

Sticking with VA, trying not to get seduced by this "classical imaging" thing! :D

I think I might be more tempted if there were a *hardware* (e.g. filter?) way of

un-upgrading an Astro Canon camera for my projected "normal" use. But!   ;)

Hiya

Astro modding you can do yourself else get done fairly cheaply by several people in the uk. I think with a filter replacement you can still use the camera normally. Now monochrome modding (debayering) is something else...

Louise

Louise

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Herra Kuulapaa

Herra Kuulapaa

Posted
Posted

One more sample. Mono DSLR is the way to go if it's resolution and portable imaging you're after :)

This is a Nikon D800am (astromono) test shot. Original drizzled resolution 14.380 x 9.050 pixels, noise reduction applied in full size and image size reduced after that. Reduction was done in smooth mode to avoid picture looking too sharp ;)

HS_2000.jpg

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Starlight 1

Starlight 1

Posted
Posted

This is a very interesting post, I have been looking at cameras ,CCD , filter wheels, for the last three weeks and cannot decide on what to get,

Didn't realise a camera could be converted to Mono, so Just wondering how my Takahashi 106ED would get on with a nice DSLR Mono camera.

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Herra Kuulapaa

Herra Kuulapaa

Posted
Posted

This is a very interesting post, I have been looking at cameras ,CCD , filter wheels, for the last three weeks and cannot decide on what to get,

Didn't realise a camera could be converted to Mono, so Just wondering how my Takahashi 106ED would get on with a nice DSLR Mono camera.

Those images have been taken with 65mm f/6.5 scope :) I have been planning to get a TAK106 for full frame imaging, but unfortunately my day job status is a little bit uncertain at the moment so I have put that project on hold.

I’d say that the comparison between mono DSLR and CCD in full frame sensor size incl resolution difference is quite interesting. Of course you’ll get proper cooling and higher QE with CCD, but the real question is that how big the difference really is compared to the price?

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PaulB

PaulB

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Posted

Good morning,

This is a very interesting post. And thank you for sharing.

I have an astro modded Canon 1000d, and I have often thought, how nice it would be to image in monochrome.

I prefer mono CCD images of the deep sky to colour pictures.

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