Starting out in astrophotography - which way to go?

[Snaxmuppet]

I already do a bit of general photgraphy. I have already 2 x Canon EOS 500D with a 18-270mm & 18-24mm Tamron zoom lenses which I use for general photography. I also have a old Celestron Nexstar 4 (silver tube) which I haven't used for quite a while now. I used to have a Celestron 8 SCT but had to sell up as our house wasn't suitable. When I had the 8" I wanted to do some astrophotography then but didn't get around to investigating it.

Now I wish to start up again.

My real interest is photography, particularly DSOs.

So, apart from my 2 500Ds I am pretty much starting from scratch so where do I start? I have so many questions that I am confusing myself at the moment... should I convert one of the 500D and use that for imaging? Would I be better off with an astro CCD? What about mounts? Thinking EQ5 but only from what I have read here so may be talking rubbish! Should I get a telescope for visual observing at all and if so which one or put the budget into a photographic only set up?

I should say that I said hi in the welcome forum and I have already been pointed to "Making Every Photon Count" which I have ordered from FLO. Should arrive any time now. Clearly that may help with many of my questions but I am keen to get going so I thought I would mention it here and see what people suggest?

Budget? Well, my starting budget could initially be £2000 in total but that must cover mount, telescope & any bits and pieces to get me going.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Snaxmuppet]

Addendum... my lenses are 10-24mm and 18-270mm... couldn't find a way to edit the post - sorry.

[leelee970]

I'd say a good solid and capable GEM mount is the most important thing to consider first. The rest will come later.

Lee

[MattJenko]

There are many others who are more qualified, but as someone who has recently trodden the path into DSO imaging, I can give my personal view.

I bought 'Making Every Photon Count' by Steve Richards as well. This is a great book covering all aspects of hardware/technique/processing to get you started in the most pain free way possible. Along with this and advice on the forums/videos online I have realised a few truths:

- DSOs are faint and as such require long exposure times. You can stack lots and lots of small exposures, but ultimately it is a smaller number of longer ones which will save your sanity.

- This means the most important thing to consider in DSO imaging is how to keep your glass + sensor pointing at the right spot. This is all down to the mount.

- Once the mount is chosen, the rest is garnish to a certain extent and subject to personal preference. You want to make life as easy as possible when starting out, as there are so many factors which need addressing, that you want to make as many of them as easy as possible. Once you are comfortable with a general workflow to generate an image you are happy with, then you can start changing things.

- This means a shortish focal length instrument. People on the forums recommend a variety of scope types, the smaller refractors (a Skywatcher ED80 is the one I actually bought), and the 130/150PDS type Newtonian reflector.

You can image merrily with your existing DSLRs and attach them directly to the scope.

Take your time and read as much as you can before committing funds. It can be an expensive past time, and it is better to get it right more often than not.

For what it is worth, if it were my £2000 and I was starting out, I would buy an AZ-EQ6 GT mount and the Evostar ED80 and a decent T-Ring (Baader one) and then have some change left over for the various sundries (batteries/adpators/software/guide scope/guide cam/dovetails....)

Matt

[bruno]

you could start by doing wide field astrophotography using just your camera & tripod using your 10-24 lens or you could also have a go at M42 ( the great nebula in orion ) with your 18-270 lens. focus your lens to about 200mm then focus on a bight star  & your eady to go  take about 50, 2second  images then put the lens cap on & take about 25 images (darks) then do the same amount of images at the fastest shutter speed this will give you your bias frames then stack them in a program called deep sky stacker (free) there are loads on utube on this.

Ps use a remote shutter to take the images & set your camera to a 2 sec delay also if the 500 has mirror lock set this to on also hope this gets you started  because  after this lot it starts getting costly 

[Tinker1947]

As Matt has said al i would change is the scope i'm  a Reflector man and would recommend a Skywatcher 150P-DS, the difference is it will gather more light being a faster scope and has a longer focal length to get a bit closer to the DSO's and  these by the way you won't see by eye sight there to dim.....

[wxsatuser]

I started with an HEQ5 Pro, 80ED and Canon 60Da but now only image with two lenses and one small fast scope.

I prefer the widerfield of these optics as well as the faster speed.

[Snaxmuppet]

Great advice already! Thanks.

I like the idea of using what I have already to get me going. It gets me looking up (!!!), it gets me learning about the software and about stacking and post processing (I have photoshop already but need to get to grips with stacking and with BYEOS if I am to use the 500D.

wxsatuser... do you just use the camera with normal lenses now then? How do you attach the camera to the HEQ5? Perhaps that is a good path for me then... get a good quality mount that will serve me well regardless of the OTA I eventually get, use it initially with just the camera/lenses that I have right now while I learn. Get an OTA later once I feel more comfortable and know enough about using the software etc to actually be able to use it.

[Shelster1973]

Would agreee with what others on here have said.  The 1st thing you need to look at is a good solid mount.  Without that under your scope, you are not going to be getting the best data possible.

As to which mount to get, that is a rather personal choice to make.  I have a Celestron AVX and have had no issues with it whatsoever, but there are plenty of other users of other mounts on here that will all sing the praises of the mounts they use.  Nothing wrong with that but as said, is a personal choice to make.  Take your time and reserach the choice well.  You will have to look into what you are wanting to achieve ultimately and that will help you in your decision.

With regards to the scope, that again is a personal choice.  I have an 8" Newtonian which I am really liking, but it is a very fast scope and as such, can be a bit of pig to get right. 

As you say you have 2 Canons it may be worth looking at geting one of them modded so as to make the most of astro imaging.  Can't reacll the name of the comapny that does them, but if you search on these forums, there are several threads that have mention of it.

You will also need to think about guiding on your setup eventually as this will be required for taking very long exposures.  You can achieve long exposures with a very good polar align, but guiding will push the time that you can expose for very high (apologies for bad england today, grammar head not working well)

BYEOS is a great piece of software to use (well I use BYN which is the Nikon version, but identical in almost all parts).  Very well supported by the author too.  I do believe there is a demo version that can be used, so give that a go and see how you get on.  Is a fairly self explanatory piece for the general capturing, but has some other very useful tools in there too.  Stacking wise, best place to start would be DeepSkyStacker (DSS).  Plenty of tutorials on the web about that.

There are also a whole gaglut of different adaptors and ancillaries that are need to get the Canon on to the scope, but deal with these after you have made a decision on a mount.

As others have said, get a good mount and just stick your Canon on that for now, so that gives you a chance to get used to mount, how it works, how to control it (if you decide that way from a laptop or other computer) and you can also use BYEOS for your imaging runs too.

Am sure it will all come good and am looking forward ot seeing some of your work.

Oh.......welcome to the frustrated and poor club. 

[Snaxmuppet]

Thanks shelster1973.

I am in Saltash! Are you a member of Plymouth Astronomical Society? I am going along to the next event... funnily enough on astrophotography!

[Shelster1973]

Snax...that is only just Cornwall......   :grin:  

No, have not made it to any of the PAS meetings as yet.  Other things thend to get in the way of me going.

One thing you will deffo need then is a Light Pollution filter.  You can get clip in ones for Canon, which would be great for you especially doing the widefield imaging.

A good place for you to head to is Tregantle Fort area down new Whitsand Bay.  I managed to grab some good widefield images from there last year.  You should be abel to find it through this thread, though not sure if the link works as work won't let me on Flickr

[wxsatuser]

At the moment I mainly image with the 60Da and the Sigma 105mm.

The camera is bolted to an short dovetail and then clamped in one side of a dual bar.

Altair dual bar has the 60mm guidescope on the other side.

[Snaxmuppet]

Snax...that is only just Cornwall......   :grin: 

Ah yes... only just, but moving to Plymouth as soon as we can find a house.

I'll look at a light pollution filter. Thx

[Shelster1973]

Ah yes... only just, but moving to Plymouth as soon as we can find a house.

I'll look at a light pollution filter. Thx

Goodmove.  No need to pay the 'Get out of Kernow' tax and you can also get by without the webbed feet on this side of the Tamar too ....    

A few linkies for the clip filter for you too

http://www.astronomik.com/en/clip-filter-system.html

http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/astronomik-cls-ccd-deep-sky-light-pollution-filter-canon-eos-clip-fit.html

http://www.modernastronomy.com/filtersAstronomik.htm

Bern at Modern Astro (last link) is a great guy and will be able to help out also (i do not work for Modern Astro or have any links to them)

[lensman57]

I already do a bit of general photgraphy. I have already 2 x Canon EOS 500D with a 18-270mm & 18-24mm Tamron zoom lenses which I use for general photography. I also have a old Celestron Nexstar 4 (silver tube) which I haven't used for quite a while now. I used to have a Celestron 8 SCT but had to sell up as our house wasn't suitable. When I had the 8" I wanted to do some astrophotography then but didn't get around to investigating it.

Now I wish to start up again.

My real interest is photography, particularly DSOs.

So, apart from my 2 500Ds I am pretty much starting from scratch so where do I start? I have so many questions that I am confusing myself at the moment... should I convert one of the 500D and use that for imaging? Would I be better off with an astro CCD? What about mounts? Thinking EQ5 but only from what I have read here so may be talking rubbish! Should I get a telescope for visual observing at all and if so which one or put the budget into a photographic only set up?

I should say that I said hi in the welcome forum and I have already been pointed to "Making Every Photon Count" which I have ordered from FLO. Should arrive any time now. Clearly that may help with many of my questions but I am keen to get going so I thought I would mention it here and see what people suggest?

Budget? Well, my starting budget could initially be £2000 in total but that must cover mount, telescope & any bits and pieces to get me going.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

I'd spend most of the money on a good EQ mount which is the backbone of any imaging system. The rest rather depends on what you want to image and what accessories would be required.

There is a lot to consider including filters and AP specific software. Your £2000.00 will very quickly disappear and you'd have to apply to your other half for an extended overdraft.

A.G

[Roy Challen]

The mount is most important, this aspect of astronomy isn't just financially draining- it will take up a lot of what is a finite amount of time. If you don't know computers, be prepared to learn!

[Snaxmuppet]

The mount is most important, this aspect of astronomy isn't just financially draining- it will take up a lot of what is a finite amount of time. If you don't know computers, be prepared to learn!

I am a computer consultant and programmer so hopefully that particular aspect will be the less challenging part... hopefully!

[lensman57]

I am a computer consultant and programmer so hopefully that particular aspect will be the less challenging part... hopefully!

Well, you'd be at home with Pixinsight and pixel math then, it'll be cakewalk.

A.G

[ollypenrice]

As others have said, mount first. It has to keep the scope pointing precisely at the target. In general there is too much talk of weight capacity and not enough talk of accuracy but, in the end, you need both. I would autoguide from day one. The rest is messing about.

If you go for a small instrument then there is no need to prefer the bigger NEQ6 over the smaller HEQ5. Going for a short FL (and fast F ratio) makes big sense with a DSLR. The small pixels don't lend themselves to long focal lengths and long FLs need far more accurate guiding. Do yourself a favour! Short FL.

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!i=2266922474&k=Sc3kgzc

[Psychobilly]

+1 for MEPC  I wish it had been available when I started out.... Plenty of good advice in the thread...

The Mount will depend on where you think your going to be going with your Astrophotography... My two most missed mounts are the HEQ5 and EQ3-Pro.... 

The HEQ-5 is very capable and the EQ3-Pro is nice and portable...  They were replaced with an NEQ-6 and an Astrotrac...

These are still two of my favourite  of my own astrophotographs  taken with relatively modest kit...  Modified Canon 1000D , EQ3-Pro (unguided) and the Canon 50/1.8 EF II...

The first is a relatively "deep" image with decent exposure time taken from home

Cygnus Nebs  Widefield 50mm 24x240s by psmithuk, on Flickr

And this is shallow "Cliff top" image ...

Milky Way Sag-Oph Mosaic QS 8b by psmithuk, on Flickr

Just Messing about really

Peter...

[Snaxmuppet]

They are great pics. Thx.

You say they are unguided. That must mean shortish duration subs? What durattion subs could you safely do without guiding? I think I am going guided from the start but just curious what you can actually do on a tight budget.

As to where I want my AP to go... I cannot really answer that just yet as I am just starting out!!! I don't really know properly what the options are or what the implications of each would be. I have so much to learn before I can make any imformed decisions but I want to get going with something asap... as we all do!

I think my approach will be to get a good mount and modest, but good quality other stuff. Regardless of what I do I will always appreciate a good mount. I had a Celestron C8 SCT before and might want to go down that route again at some point. Perhaps 9.25. I don't know. So although a EQ6 is probably more than I need right now I am sure it would not be wasted money.

So my thoughts at the moment so far are...

SW AZ EQ6-GT - overkill for now perhaps but this can then stay with me pretty regardless of what I do

SW 80 ED - sensible starter scope for AP?

ST80 with a guide CCD for autoguiding (still unsure what CCD though). I believe this is a good guiding option?

Get one of my Canon 500D bodies modded. Where?

Use BYEOS for camera control

Use EQMOD for mount control?

Do I need software for autoguiding (I have asked this in another thread BTW)?

Still unsure what other software I will need for stacking etc... already have Photoshop.

I should say that this is all very much provisional based on what I have read over the past few days. I still haven't got my copy of "Making Every Photon Count" and so perhaps my thoughts may change after reading that and many of my questions may get answered so please just tell me to slow down if you think I am going too fast . Whatever happens I am not rushing into this even though it may appear so from my posts.

[PeterCPC]

You can get a Canon modded by Astronomiser  http://www.astronomiser.co.uk/moddeddslrs.htm or Cheap Astrophotography http://cheapastrophotography.vpweb.co.uk/

The software most used for guiding is PHD http://www.stark-labs.com/phdguiding.html. You don't have to use EQMOD if you don't want to - I don't.

Stacking of DSO subs is usually through Deep Sky Stacker http://deepskystacker.free.fr/english/index.html.

Peter

[wxsatuser]

As Peter above.

This is what I use, EQMOD with Cartes du Ciel plus an Xbox wireless hand control for mount control, PHD for guiding, all free.

A Samsung WIN 7 laptop with EQMOD, CdC, PS CC, PHD, DSS, Imagesplus and PixInsight.

My guidescope is an Altair 60mm with an Orion Starshoot camera.

My 60Da is controlled with an intervalometer and the cam has a mains supply.

I manually focus all lenses with Liveview but use a Bahtinov mask on the Borg scope.

Here is my semi widefield setup with Sigma 105mm macro, one day will tidy the cables.

[Snaxmuppet]

Oh dear! Now I am in trouble.

Started looking at CCDs

Now the 6 million dollar question... spend less on the mount, perhaps a HEQ5 instead of the EQ6, save by not getting the 500D modded and put that money towards a secondhand mono CCD with filter wheel?

There is one for sale on astro buy and sell... a Atik 314+ with EFW2 (no filters) for £1000.

So, EQ6 and modding the 500D or HEQ5 and secondhand CCD and filter wheel?

The CCD will cost a bit more but not a great extra in the scale of what I am looking to spend.

Heck... the wife will kill me .... I had better stop looking for now or else I will be signing up for a Takahashi 85 instead of the SW 80ED!!! Well you can't take it with you!

[Davey-T]

Before you buy anything remember it all needs to work together, so investigate stuff like resolution ie; arc seconds / pixel, probably referenced in Steves book and field of view, a few calculators around, one on FLO site I think.

You will discover that one camera  / scope combo' won't capture all those pretty pic's on the forums 

Dave