Sorry to have ever doubted you Moonshane

[spaceboy]

Following on from a fellow members recent bargain from our favourite bits and bobs site Astroboot http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/228339-oh-blimeyive-been-astrobooted/page-2 in which I also managed to bag myself a scope I had got my eye's on for the same intentions of solar observing . 

As looking at the sun is one of those things that as a kid it is drilled in to you NOT to do "along with don't cheek your mother" !!! I cautiously raised the question of the suitability of a larger scope for white light observing with a 1.25" lunt wedge as lunt's own site recommended "for best performance" apertures of up to 4" with the smaller 1.25" wedge and the 2" wedge for apertures up to 6" http://luntsolarsystems.com/product/white-light-solar-wedges/

As we are each to our own, the way you choose to interpret "The 1.25″ model performs best on refractors up to 4″ in aperture" is down to the individual but when I'm wanting to get the best views I can of solar or stellar objects I sometimes have to take it on good faith that the person selling you their product "should" know best what they are talking about. Although at the fore front my concern was that I didn't want anything getting too hot and cracking or having any other adverse reaction to excessive aperture I also had in my mind that lunt would have surly made comparisons and the like to establish the whole "performs BEST" statement.

Anyway.... after having been assure by Moonshane (Sorry that I ever doubted you mate  ) that using the wedge in his 120mm raised no risk or performance issues other than the wedge as you'd expect got warmer than it would in a 100mm but not excessively so,  I decided I would buy my time until the skies and seeing made it worth me lugging my AR12L over my astrobooted ST102.

Well today was that day. I will point out before I begin that the seeing has been exceptional here in Brum today. There has been next to no cloud and the air has been as still as a rabbit caught in head lights. My day began with a visit to my dear parents house as solar observing at home doesn't get going till late afternoon due to buildings getting in the way. This meant I was looking through my 80mm f/6 @ x38.4 for a good hour, soon realizing that the seeing was offering up plenty of surface granulations and detail in the caterpillar sunspot 12222 After a natter and a bit to eat I decided to make way for home as the sun was getting a little higher and I wanted to make the best of the clear skies. Back at home I plugged the lunt wedge in to my 102mm f/4.9 @ x40 and was pleasantly surprised to see the seeing was as good as the morning and that the 102mm allowed for even steadier views (still haven't figured out why that is ?? I assume better resolution ??) and granulations appeared more contrasted with some lighter finer details in 12222  more apparent. Along with smaller pores dotted about over the solar surface remaining visible for longer than they had in the 80mm this was turning in to one of those days you really don't want to end.

Sat there trying to cling on to every view I decided the sun still had some height in it and the seeing so steady that I could get set up with my less than portable AR127L in reasonable time to really make this a solar observing session to remember. I don't know whether it was the excitement but I was set up in record time and hovered over the eyepiece eye lens glimpsing glare of green/yellow with baited breath knowing the sun was sat in the view. As I had decided to leave everything the way it was in the wedge which consisted of a polarizing filter, Baader SC (sorry for being a doubter again Stu and Shane  ) and my much loved 12.5mm Fujiyama ortho the magnification was going to be at a rather optimistic x96 but I could already feel my mouth watering so dove straight in.  

Now aligned and eyeball heading for the eyepiece the green/yellow blur got bigger and bigger until my eye sat comfortably on the winged eye cup awaiting the tickly of that buttery smooth R&P to slowly begin revealing it's focused treasures. This is where things become really difficult for me as there simply isn't any word in my scientific vocabulary that can get across to you what sensually pleasured my eye in those first seconds of razor sharpness than Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. I mean my God you really do have to see it to believe it. I just never in my wildest dreams thought it was possible to physically get these kinds of views for yourself. It was shocking and emotional to think I have been able to see the penumbra crochet patterns with such shocking detail as I have been able today. The wispy little tendrils reaching out in to the umbra and what looked like over and across the umbra at one end. Shocking just totally shocking....I just can't get across how WOW you would feel at seeing the details I have been blessed with today. The only odd and frankly puzzling part was the surface granulation didn't really give a similar WOW moment and if anything while blatantly obvious it did seem to be washed out and lacking contrast. I'm sure if I had started messing with the polarizing filter these details may had become more apparent but I tend to leave it set up in a way that has proven to offer the best views in my 4" frak. I have though unfortunately had my finger in the pie and already want more. Thoughts of 6" f/8's and Baader CoolCeramic Herschel Wedge's now consume my mind.

I have to try and keep my feet planted and appreciate that today has offered up some remarkably good conditions and that if they carry on in to the night I think the observing sections are going to be overflowing with good reports tomorrow.

As for Lunt...... you need to get your act in order !! and update your website with more realistic expectations for the 1.25" and not just trying to make extra money out of those thinking you need a 2" wedge for larger apertures. Yes the ceramic plate does become noticeably warmer and I'm sure in the peak of summer for longer sessions and bigger apertures the efficiency of the smaller plate to dissipate the heat could well see you use it for a BBQ in the evening but to potentially rob people of the views I have seen today should be a criminal act in the astronomer courts.

My attempts at hand held A-focal with my phone this morning in my 80mm. I have to laugh at this as I swear it looks yellow at the eyepiece but hey the camera never lies.

And the moment that has changed the way I look at the sun forever ...

This really has had me second guessing which way I want to go as regards Solar Ha as aperture really is king. I do like the full disk views of the sun but now seeing what the surface has to offer I can't help but think that any solar scope under 4" just isn't going to cut the mustard.

I would be interested to hear if any other members have had similar OMG moments observing the sun today.

[Moonshane]

LOL. There's no shame in exercising great care and sensible doubt when trying something that seems against the general view, when solar observing. You should always be careful and follow set procedures and routines when solar observing of any fashion. On the point of the Lunt 1.25" wedge my logic was based on the research I did online, including comments by the designer of the Lunt wedge and of course other SGL members who had also tried it.

I agree with you that if imaging or observing with a tracking mount for longer periods, with an aperture greater than 4" it would be wise to consider a 2" wedge to reduce the heat load on the 1.25" but I have not had any issues at all with the 120mm f5. In fact it provides a little warmth in the cool air at the minute!

Today was possibly the best seeing I have experienced too and the large spot was simply extraordinary with a 2x barlow and 11mm plossl (110x). Granulation is enhanced using the polarising filter and good attention to focus and with the larger aperture is 'in your face' rather than slightly obscure as it is with smaller apertures.

Regarding Ha, I only have two scopes to compare - standard PST at 40mm aperture and PST mod at effective 80mm aperture and the difference is astonishing. I have with the help of another most kind SGLer got the DERF cell reduced down to fit inside the OTA so I will now get the full 100mm aperture with the PST mod. Looking forward to first (second first) light.

[spaceboy]

I had my reservations about the useability of the quark due to warm up times and effectively having to change scopes not eyepieces to get full disk views but after having my eyes opened to the potential of resolution and higher magnifications afforded by that I think I have no alternative but to consider that route.

[Luke]

Great report!

I loved the view in white light today. I used my Equinox 120 and a Baader Herschel wedge and the main, elongated spot was gorgeous. I find my ED100 holds its own pretty well against the 120, and I use the Lunt 1.25 with that one, plus a solar continuum with both. I might use the 1.25 with the 120 now and again after reading Shane's very interesting insight, I had kind of assumed it was a no-go going by that text from Lunt, it's so vague I wasn't sure what it meant so had played safe.

I also had a wow moment with my first close-up view in white light quite a few moons ago. That was I think with the 120 again and with a binoviewer. I was shocked by how detailed the view was. I just could not imagine that you would be able to see so much detail on the sun.

With both h-a and white light, I find 100mm upwards to hit a really nice threshold of detail. I have had some lovely views through PST's and with my 60mm but a 100 really rocks if you can swing it. I have a lovely razor-sharp Tele Vue 85 and a Skywatcher ED100 and with the Quark, ignoring portability. I would take the ED100 every time, the view is up a level in detail.

For this reason I really do think the Quark is worthy of serious consideration if a PST mod is not for you (it's not for me, I botched two DSLR mods! I am gonna leave tinkering with solar equipment well alone!!)

Now when I got the Quark I thought I would still be using my SolarMax 60 the most, and the Quark for best conditions. Reality is that I have barely touched the SM60 in five to six months since I had the Quark. The Quark is completely viable as a grab and go, I take my 60mm scope for that, I just warm up the Quark ten minutes before I want to use it. A nice long cable and portable battery makes that quite easy to cope with. I use the same tuning every time after finding the one I want to use, so no hassle there.

But really any size solar scope is cool. I use my Quark and 60mm the most as it's so portable, but I always look forward to getting the 100 or 120 out. At last, I got to use the 120 today, hurrah! Been three+ weeks...

PS seeing was decent though not spectacular our way today, a huge improvement on the awful seeing we had on Sunday!

[spaceboy]

I like the idea of the PST mod as Shane is able to have the best of both worlds by the looks of things 40mm PST for grab and go traveling and photon grabbing 100mm when he needs it. I do have some hobby machining equipment to hand so you would think I'd be all for having a play at a stage 1 or 2 but I think Shane also fell lucky with everything coming up at good used prices and in a timely manner.

I have to admit I'm just not getting the vibe from a quark and the only reason why I would go this route is because my 6 numbers haven't come up yet and a LS152tha is only available in my dreams. There seems to be a lot of mention that the quark lacks contrast and having just gone from a #58 filter thinking that improved the views to a Badder SC which showed me that contrast really is key to bringing details out.

[nightfisher]

Nick, what a great report, funny how some people really get the Solar bug, and others, like me, just like to dabble a little in white light, i could tell today was one of great seeing, but as usual i worked this out while driving a ruddy great lorry around the country from dawn till dark 

[Stu]

Great report Nick, I'm getting the idea you quite enjoyed that?! :-)

I totally agree that around 100 to 120mm seems to be a sweetspot, although as I found out the other day, if the seeing is poor then you are better off with a 60mm to keep the mag down.

I have not yet had a really good session with the Quark in my 120ED, that is with the sun at decent altitude and good seeing, I've just had hints of what is possible.

I do find the granulation is quite variable, sometimes it's more obvious in smaller scopes so I'm sure Shane's suggestion of the polarizing filter is worth experimenting with.

Good luck deciding, whichever way you go

Stu

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spaceboy]

Liked it isn't the word Stu. OK I know the seeing was the biggest factor and if it was not for it being so steady I would have probably been less star struck (see what I did there ). It was just the whole seeing the sun as if it was something in the solar images section. I just never thought it possible with what is in truth cheap astronomy equipment. Sad part is that just like it has been so often in the past looking at Saturn or M42 I know the next time I try this setup the views just won't match what I'd seen yesterday as mother nature only allows us these passing moments of being in the right place at the right time.

I do so want to like the quark but I really do feel I would have to have a look through someone's before committing what is for me an awful lot of money. Solar scopes like the PST and LS50Tha do what they do and are optimised to do it well where as the Quark brings other factors in to play which maybe less than ideal like mass produced achromats, eyepieces or IR/UV blocking filters that may be lacking quality, sloppy focusers that can have you chasing red / blue shift etc, etc, etc. To be convinced I would really have to decide for myself in the gear I would be intending to use it in which with the quark being new to the masses it is unlikely anyone near me will have one and more importantly be willing to let me have a play.

I think for people new in to "Ha" with the quark it is all to easy to think hmm get that and bang it in my 4" refractor and I've got a solar scope worth £5K but if it was so easy to do that wouldn't Coronado or Lunt have gone down that path at some point instead of releasing Ooops "supposed to be releasing a 50mm solar scope  " around the same time as the Quark.

All this said I don't really see any other option. I know the views through a 35-50mm Ha scope will never allow me the magnifications I achieved yesterday and with out that I am never going to get the opportunity to see the surface detail in such mind blowing detail should the skies ever play ball again. The entire time I was out yesterday I was trying to get a feel for delays and temperature to in my head some how simulate lost time at the eyepiece. I know reading the quark manual that daystar say there may be a point the quark cannot get on the best band due to ambient temperatures and given the UK goes from one extreme to another this is also a concern when observing over the cold winter months.

And Jules I am stunned that a planetary guy like yourself hasn't got the solar bug when you have yourself a Tal 100. You have got to get yourself a wedge Jules!!! Solar film is all very good but it just isn't in the same league.

[Moonshane]

You are right to be cautious Nick. I was umming and ahhing for ages too as this is for me also a major spend. In fact it is the most expensive spend I have made other than my big dob. I had to sell a lot of old moth gear to buy it along with a few unused astro bits and bobs. All told though a complete 100mm Ha solar scope and still less than just a quark or 50mm lunt.

It is possibly less convenient and is more compact than a 50/60mm lunt but I love it.

[nightfisher]

And Jules I am stunned that a planetary guy like yourself hasn't got the solar bug when you have yourself a Tal 100. You have got to get yourself a wedge Jules!!! Solar film is all very good but it just isn't in the same league.

Sorry Nick, i am just not that interested in Solar, i dabble with white light but i soon lose interest, to tell the truth i am not all that fussed for viewing it and prefer just to try to image in white light, but a lot of folk are very keen and thats fine by me

[spaceboy]

Trolling the internet again I see more and more mention of the Quark lacking visually compared to dedicated Ha scopes but benefit by not having sweet spots. I don't think this is a specific issue with the Quark itself but of Daystars filters in general or at least that's how I read it. Saying all this I was able to get out again today and while the skies were not as good as the other day they were allowing me to up the mag on my usual choice. Rather than fussing swapping out ep's I dropped the Meade zoom in and while experimenting I came to the conclusion that magnification has the biggest impact on surface granulation contrast. More mag the less contrast I appeared to have. Even adjusting the polarizing filter didn't seem to reveal the detail as much as backing of the magnification. Anyway to my point.....I am wondering that the quark suffers contrast because of magnification from the x4.2 barlow. Even lengthening the fl of eyepieces it's a struggle to back off the magnifications to that what you would get in dedicated solar scopes. Could it be the higher mag or am I barking up the wrong tree ??

[Stu]

I think you are right with that observation Nick.

In my FS-60, 355mm f/l I get full disk views and they do have nice contrast. I have found with white light views that granulation is often easier to see at lower mags.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John]

Sorry Nick, i am just not that interested in Solar, i dabble with white light but i soon lose interest, to tell the truth i am not all that fussed for viewing it and prefer just to try to image in white light, but a lot of folk are very keen and thats fine by me

No need to apologise Jules. I'm feel just the same with solar, despite having owned a PST for a while

It's interesting to keep up with developments in solar viewing though and enjoy it vicariously though the reports of others.

[spaceboy]

I think what it is for me is that the sun is different every day. Same with planets, they offer up something different and the longer you look at them (Jupiter more so) you can se those details change. But then there is the moon. While I can scan the moon and take in the more subtle details I know that those details are never really going to change.

The sun can as it has the past months offer up so much to explore each day you come back to it and then there are those days when the seeing lets you see even more detail in the details. I admit I wasn't overly impressed with my 60mm with solar film and Meade zoom but it got me hooked on solar observing and just as you improve on kit for stellar observing there is opportunity to do the same in solar observing.

It may sound obvious but my Lunt wedge, Baader SC, ST102 and ortho wipes the floor with my 60SLT and baader film but I think it is all to easy to think the solar film will do and the massive cost difference unworthy.

I agree though that it is each to their own at the end of the day. I personally can't get in to galaxies. There are those obvious few that break the exception but for the most I just can't get enough out of the view to enjoy them yet there are those who love looking for and observing them.

[Luke]

If pics like these do nothing for you, I am pretty convinced solar is not for you

So many reasons why I love solar, I was a reluctant convert at first, but there's no going back now, I'd sell my 16 inch dob over my solar gear, but it would be boring if we all liked the same stuff! Whatever floats your boat

[spaceboy]

Is that the fella with the 203mm custom built. I bet NASA have him on speed dial with images like that   :Envy:    

[Telescope40]

Hello all. Been following this thread with much interest.  So far I have only used Baader film with my two fracs. Pretty happy with the results.   Here are my queries.

I get the impression from the above comments that the 1.25 Lunt H Wedge would be able to handle being attached to my Meade 127 frac. I would also use my little Borg achro also.  I would use on either a tracking mount (EQ6) or my Skytee.  

So long as I moved the scope away from Mr Solar, maybe every few minutes, I am assuming that no harm would come to either the wedge, my scope, and most importantly my sight, in that order. .

How would you all rate the experience compared with the solar film.  If the film was say 5 out of 10  the wedge would be WHAT out of 10. Really looking for numbers near 10   LOL

FLO's blurb mentions a polarizing  filter is needed too for visual. .  Could someone point me to the correct filter.  

Many thanks in advance, as always,           John

[Moonshane]

Hi John

I have based my comments on those of the designer of the lunt wedge who uses a 1.25" wedge with a 10" frac. If using a tracking mount you would need to keep an eye on heat but assuming your scope is a doublet it should be fine.

You could come and use mine to gauge the difference sometime if you like.

I am pretty sure any pol filter will be fine but it is good for visual.

[spaceboy]

.

How would you all rate the experience compared with the solar film.  If the film was say 5 out of 10  the wedge would be WHAT out of 10. Really looking for numbers near 10   LOL

FLO's blurb mentions a polarizing  filter is needed too for visual. .  Could someone point me to the correct filter.  

Many thanks in advance, as always,           John

I wouldn't knock Baader film as for the money and versatility of the stuff there isn't much that comes close to it. Wedges are great but you can't use them with a selection of telescopes like you can filter film and the stuff only costs like £20.

I have had full aperture Baader solar film filters on 60mm, 90mm fraks and 6" on a 200P and none of them in my eye's really come close to the views through the Lunt wedge, but I would expect it to as your looking at spending £140 on a wedge, £60 on a baader SC filter and maybe another £20 on a polarizer which I'd recommend but I know others say they can get away with just the SC.

To give a fair vote I would compare the solar film in my 90mm f/10 frak against the wedge in my 80mm f/6. The scores on the doors would be 4.5/10 solar film and 8.5/10 for the wedge. I am being conservative with the score for the wedge as I'm aware that the 2" Baader Cool Ceramic Herschel Wedge is said to be the one to offer the pinnacle of solar white light observing so stands to take the top spot at 10/10. Sadly the clouds thwarted my plans to look through a fellow members at one of the star parties (seems to be a common occurrence ) so I cannot confirm either way if the Baader cool ceramic wedge for the extra £250 or not ??

Hope this helps

[Telescope40]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Shane - a trip over to yours for a look thru the fracs, PST etc sounds great.  I might even see a Dob ??  LOL    I'll chase you down in due course. 

Like the sound of the increase in views for the wedge compared with the Baader film.    Credit card cowers,  as I type this.

Clear skies     John

[Moonshane]

Anytime I am available mate. Just send me a pm.

[Brian Nordstrom]

Like this thread , I like Moonshane , use my 1 1/4 inch Lunt wedge in me 127mm f8 refractor all the time , the heat sink only ever gets warm and the views are  spectacular ! , here is a close up of a sun spot group in the April 2014 partial eclipse , hand held windows phone over 5mm  TV Radian , 200x .

Brian.