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Boren-Simon 8" f/3.6 PowerNewton ED Astrograph


Jason A B

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I am new to astrophotography and need some advice.

So after looking at scopes to replace my Meade SN 8 which i have had for years now and only used for visual observing i think it's time upgrade as i have caught the imaging bug!

I am seriously looking at buying the Boren-Simon 8 inch F/3.6  ED astrograph for use with my modded canon dslr.

So my question is has anyone else used one of these scopes, there are no good reviews online to helkp me decide ?

Already have a William optics 66mm Zenithstar which i would like to piggyback on it for autoguiding and visual use,

After totting up all the weights and it's still under the max load for the celestron advanced vx mount i recently purchased.

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I like the images Harel has done with this best of all his stuff - and that's saying something, it really is. However, he's a talented guy and knows how to set up a telescope. Like any very fast instrument other than a focally reduced Tak FSQ this is going to need setting up. Don't expect it to be easy. Fast is good but fast is also difficult. Be aware.

Olly

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Already have a William optics 66mm Zenithstar which i would like to piggyback on it for autoguiding and visual use,

After totting up all the weights and it's still under the max load for the celestron advanced vx mount i recently purchased.

Is that the max load or the max imaging load ? usually two different things :)

Dave

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Have you thought about imaging with your WO66 to start with at all?

its a very easy scope to learn with, there's no super critical collimation like there is with a fast Newt. Also the short focal length makes accurate tracking a breeze. oh yes, plus much less field curvature! 

If you add a 0.8 reducer flattener they are fast as well! f/4.7

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The instrument you are looking at is certainly a fantastic scope

http://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/telescopes/astrograph/ts-boren-simon-8-f-3-6-powernewton-astrograph.html

As far as I know it's based on GSO F4 Newtonian primary. The carbon tube should be stiffer and more resistant to temperature change focus shift during the course of a nights imaging that a steel tube might suffer from (you could just check focus between targets as I do). The focuser is good and I like the idea of replacing the 95%R secondary with a slightly larger 97%R reflector (not that full field illumination has ever been an issue with my GSO F4's which come with larger secondary's anyway).

What you're really paying for is with this scope is the rather excellent ASA Keller reducer corrector optic, an accessory which is available separately. You could also use this optic in any other fast Newtonian you own (I use mine in any of my four Newtonians (6",8",10" & 12") to give a wide possible range of focal lengths and F ratios).

As Olly suggests this scope won't be as simple to use as plain refractor- but it is designed to be more stable than the average steel tube Newtonian. Collimation will need careful checking so also budget for some decent collimation tools to go with the scope should you buy one.

If weight is an issue I believe there is a 6" version available? Also consider the insanely fast F2,9 version!

http://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/telescopes/astrograph/ts-boren-simon-8-f-2-8-powernewton-astrograph.html

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Here's a link to the Simon-Boren 6" F2.8 astrograph:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p5768_TS-Boren-Simon-6--f-2-8-PowerNewton-Astrograph---420mm-Brennweite.html

sweet looking scope and only 4kg!

The only thing I would add is that these ultra fast scopes are really most at home in very dark skies and not that much use to the urban astronomer.

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The one thing i am blessed with is very dark skys and i do love the Wo 66mm with the field flattener.

I am just thinking of the years ahead and having a scope that is really dedicated for imaging as next year i want to start on building a small dome and want a pemanent setup so i can run out at a moments notice and start imaging.

Clear nights here are rare enough and the whole setup ordeal drives me mad.

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The one thing i am blessed with is very dark skys and i do love the Wo 66mm with the field flattener.

I am just thinking of the years ahead and having a scope that is really dedicated for imaging as next year i want to start on building a small dome and want a pemanent setup so i can run out at a moments notice and start imaging.

Clear nights here are rare enough and the whole setup ordeal drives me mad.

The other way to get speed is to use a dual rig but that is more expensive.

Olly

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I had a look at one of these when Harel first started making them, fantastic bit of kit. Unfortunately my site with its light pollution isn't suited to a scope like this so it will have to wait.

As Olly has said 'plug and play' they most certainly are not and Harel is a master at getting the best from these scopes - check out where he takes his pictures from.

If your heart is set on a fast newt also have a look at the Orion optics AG range  http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/AG/orionopticsagast.html check out Peter Shahs' images to see what they are capable of under European climes :)

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If your heart is set on a fast newt also have a look at the Orion optics AG range  http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/AG/orionopticsagast.html check out Peter Shahs' images to see what they are capable of under European climes :)

Excellent scopes with an eyewatering price to match. Till I win the lottery I'll have put up with my slightly modified £570 GSO 12" F4!

EDIT- I like the idea of clamping the focuser between two tube rings. I feel another mod coming on!

agreinforcebandsa.jpeg

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I am new to astrophotography and need some advice.

So after looking at scopes to replace my Meade SN 8 which i have had for years now and only used for visual observing i think it's time upgrade as i have caught the imaging bug!

I am seriously looking at buying the Boren-Simon 8 inch F/3.6  ED astrograph for use with my modded canon dslr.

So my question is has anyone else used one of these scopes, there are no good reviews online to helkp me decide ?

Already have a William optics 66mm Zenithstar which i would like to piggyback on it for autoguiding and visual use,

After totting up all the weights and it's still under the max load for the celestron advanced vx mount i recently purchased.

I can tell you from the experience of owining a SW Quattro 8s @ f4 that setting these scopes up properly for imaging is a right royal pain in the neck even for experienced imagers using fast Newtonians, however once properly set up and running the results can be stunning. A Boren Simon seems to have been made with a bit more thought than a SW BTW.

Regards,

A.G

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  • 3 years later...

I know this thread is old but I’ve been looking at this too and thought it was worth adding that the f3.6 scope is based on a f5 not an f4 scope, it’s the f2.8 one that’s based on a f4 scope. This means the f3.6 version is both less critical in collimation and can easily be used as a F5 imaging scope without the reducer but with a coma Corrector

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/26/2014 at 10:37, laser_jock99 said:

Here's a link to the Simon-Boren 6" F2.8 astrograph:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p5768_TS-Boren-Simon-6--f-2-8-PowerNewton-Astrograph---420mm-Brennweite.html

sweet looking scope and only 4kg!

The only thing I would add is that these ultra fast scopes are really most at home in very dark skies and not that much use to the urban astronomer.

I am very tempted to get this one. But why fast telescopes suffer under light polluted skies? How about using them with a good light pollution filter? I want to keep my 5 minutes exposures which is fine with an 80 ED at /f6.3 under my urban white area skies, but I am realising that to get the faint stuff I need to expose for 20 hours and possibly more than that. Reducing that exposure time, to, say 6 hours is basically a dream for an astro imager like me living in Sweden where the winter can be clouds for months. Additionally, no imaging from mid april till mid september due to the lack of astronomical darkness.   

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16 minutes ago, Firas said:

I am very tempted to get this one. But why fast telescopes suffer under light polluted skies? How about using them with a good light pollution filter? I want to keep my 5 minutes exposures which is fine with an 80 ED at /f6.3 under my urban white area skies, but I am realising that to get the faint stuff I need to expose for 20 hours and possibly more than that. Reducing that exposure time, to, say 6 hours is basically a dream for an astro imager like me living in Sweden where the winter can be clouds for months. Additionally, no imaging from mid april till mid september due to the lack of astronomical darkness.   

Scopes don't differentiate between target photons and LP photons. Fast scopes pick up both kind of photons fast. The only sure way to get quality images from a light polluted site is to increase the total integration time (if you don't want to use NB filters). LP adds photons and therefore also shot noise (square root of nr of incoming photons). The light pollution signal is removed during processing (DBE and background neutralisation in PixInsight). But the noise part of LP can only be properly removed by having a longer integration time. And this needs to come from an increased number of subs, since the single sub exposure time is limited by the light pollution. I've read somewhere that for each magnitude that you lose due to light pollution, you need to double the integration time. While I'm not sure about the actual numbers, the general idea behind it makes sense.

As for single sub exposure time: this should be limited by sky lightness or dark current. If you expose shorter than this limit, your subs will be limited by read noise. Under dark skies, the exposure time needed to clear the read noise floor can become very long, and your guiding or tracking may not allow such long subs. A fast scope will help keep the single sub exposure time down.

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7 minutes ago, wimvb said:

Scopes don't differentiate between target photons and LP photons. Fast scopes pick up both kind of photons fast. The only sure way to get quality images from a light polluted site is to increase the total integration time (if you don't want to use NB filters). LP adds photons and therefore also shot noise (square root of nr of incoming photons). The light pollution signal is removed during processing (DBE and background neutralisation in PixInsight). But the noise part of LP can only be properly removed by having a longer integration time. And this needs to come from an increased number of subs, since the single sub exposure time is limited by the light pollution. I've read somewhere that for each magnitude that you lose due to light pollution, you need to double the integration time. While I'm not sure about the actual numbers, the general idea behind it makes sense.

As for single sub exposure time: this should be limited by sky lightness or dark current. If you expose shorter than this limit, your subs will be limited by read noise. Under dark skies, the exposure time needed to clear the read noise floor can become very long, and your guiding or tracking may not allow such long subs. A fast scope will help keep the single sub exposure time down.

Thanks Wim, I understand. What I really think, can be a game changer for me is if this fast telescope will handel 

my light polluted skies. I am asking because Laser_jock99 said that they are rarely used in urban skies. 

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I tried my F2.9 Newts in suburban skies and was reaching sky fog limit in 30s without filter! I tried with a Ha 7nm filter and that worked okay- but you can use these filters effectively with almost any imaging set up. At my darksky site they can run 20 mins+ (camera noise becomes the main issue then) IMHO this is where they really shine.

So it might be worth a try if you can filter and have a modded camera - otherwise your exposures will need to be very short. As mentioned higher up in the thread - you'll have to put up with the foibles of using a fast Newt. However, the 6" F2.9 at least is a very portable instrument and you'll be easily able to take it to dark skies if needed.

This is my variant of the Boren-Simon concept using a TS branded GSO 6" F4 steel tube Newt. As you can see it's quite small. The ED80 on top is the guide scope (or the roles can be reversed should I feel the need to image at F7.5.....).

38659143284_abdec0e60b_b.jpg

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5 hours ago, laser_jock99 said:

I tried my F2.9 Newts in suburban skies and was reaching sky fog limit in 30s without filter! I tried with a Ha 7nm filter and that worked okay- but you can use these filters effectively with almost any imaging set up. At my darksky site they can run 20 mins+ (camera noise becomes the main issue then) IMHO this is where they really shine.

So it might be worth a try if you can filter and have a modded camera - otherwise your exposures will need to be very short. As mentioned higher up in the thread - you'll have to put up with the foibles of using a fast Newt. However, the 6" F2.9 at least is a very portable instrument and you'll be easily able to take it to dark skies if needed.

This is my variant of the Boren-Simon concept using a TS branded GSO 6" F4 steel tube Newt. As you can see it's quite small. The ED80 on top is the guide scope (or the roles can be reversed should I feel the need to image at F7.5.....).

38659143284_abdec0e60b_b.jpg

Thank you of the reply! Very interesting!

 If I get the scope, I will be using it with my ccd Moravian G2 8300. I use IDAS P2 LP filter infront of the imaging train, and it gives me 10 minutes LRGB/80ed at /f6.3, with no issues at all. (DBE really helps!) So I would be very pleased if I get five minutes at f/2.9 as that equals 15 minuts at f/6.3, if I understod right! How to calculate the math to determine the possibility? And how do you calculate sky fog limit? 

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  • 6 months later...
On 28/04/2018 at 12:07, wimvb said:

There's a script for that in PixInsight. It's reasonably self explanatory.

I know its ages ago Wim--but I did not know this.  Is it useful?  I probably violate all sorts of commonly held mantras of imaging.  

Rodd

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40 minutes ago, Rodd said:

Is it useful? 

I don't know, actually. I've never really used it, other than explore it. My exposures have so far been limited by guiding and tracking, more than by sky conditions. I would need to revisit this.

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