Need help with my step by step instructions please

[ianpwilliams]

Hi all

I've got my basic unguided imaging setup ready to go (HEQ5, 130PDS, 1100D etc), but unsurprisingly I'm struggling to make a proper start. I did manage to get outside with the mount (the telescope won't even be involved until I get the mount setup correct), and I got to a point where I got stuck, and ended up with lots of questions.

I attempted to put a step by step guide together for myself, based on various guides from other people, and I've attached it to this thread. It has various questions in the form of comments, which I'll need to find the answers to if I am to get anywhere.

So it would be much appreciated if someone could have a look at my guide and see if it is correct or not, and also if someone could help me with my questions. I'd be happy to post the contents of the guide here, along with the questions, but it is rather long.

HEQ5 Setup - My Step by Step.doc

[happy-kat]

Live view on the 1100d does not hold the mirror up, it is worse as the picture is taken the mirror flops down then up again plus live view makes the sensor hot and anyway it turns off after about 30 seconds.

For now don't worry about the mirror.

Get your focus right then left live view go off.

Hope you get review of the rest :-)

[lensman57]

Hi all

I've got my basic unguided imaging setup ready to go (HEQ5, 130PDS, 1100D etc), but unsurprisingly I'm struggling to make a proper start. I did manage to get outside with the mount (the telescope won't even be involved until I get the mount setup correct), and I got to a point where I got stuck, and ended up with lots of questions.

I attempted to put a step by step guide together for myself, based on various guides from other people, and I've attached it to this thread. It has various questions in the form of comments, which I'll need to find the answers to if I am to get anywhere.

So it would be much appreciated if someone could have a look at my guide and see if it is correct or not, and also if someone could help me with my questions. I'd be happy to post the contents of the guide here, along with the questions, but it is rather long.

Is this HEQ5 Pro Goto or just a plain old HEQ5? Can you see Polaris from your location?

A.G

[ianpwilliams]

It's an HEQ5 Pro SynScan with GOTO, and yes I can see Polaris

[ianpwilliams]

Another question I was going to ask was whether it's ok to have the mount taller, because it's back-breaking looking through the polar scope otherwise!

[iksose7]

It looks like you have the jist of it but a few things could make life easier. I would make it a priority to get a laptop with some software installed, EQMod ect. This will make everything much much easier and save you a lot of frustration. I started out following a similar list to what you have here and found myself spending hours some nights messing around then giving up. Then i got a laptop and installed EQMod for mount control, Cartes Du Ciel for slewing/planetarium, Astrotortilla for platesolving (finding target) and APT for camera control and focusing. I can now be imaging in under half an hour. Just little things like not having to mess about with all the dial clocks for polar alignment make it a more enjoyable experience.

The list makes it all look a lot harder than it is to be honest. The more you set up the easier and faster it will be especially with things like balancing the scope. I cant stress enough though how much easier it gets once you start using software. 

Comment IP3: You may have forgotten to take off the polar cap on the other side of the mount, i've made that mistake a few times!

And the last point you make about the darks, the darks need to be the same length as the lights. Its bias frames that are the minimum exposure length!

You want to have the mount as low as possible really but you would just have to try it higher up and see if it works for you. It will depend a lot on what gear you have on it, the ground its sitting on and wind.

Callum

[ianpwilliams]

Thanks for that, very helpful!

When it comes to the polar scope, I have no top cap (mount was bought second hand), so it's not that! But I am short-sighted. I can't see the stars with the naked eye, but I can see them without glasses through a scope, but looking through the polar scope with glasses is tough, because your eye needs to be pressed tight against the eyepiece.

So the darks have to be the same length?? So if I did 10 x 60-second subs (I believe that 60-90 subs is the top end without guiding?), then I would be looking at doing another hour doing 10 x 60-second darks? That's a pain!

As it happens, I have just bought a laptop, which should arrive on Monday. It's old and secondhand, but I'm assured that its fine for all the astronomy programs (possibility except for Stellarium and one other program).

Oddly I've always felt like a laptop could be even more hassle than no laptop, mainly because I'm sure I would need to sit down to operate it , and no doubt it wouldn't do everything for me, so I'd be constantly getting up and down and switching between laptop and mount. And I wonder how long it would take me to get to grips with all of the different programs. But if you or anyone else can reassure me that it does make life easier, then please do!

Even so, I won't have the laptop until sometime next week, and Sunday night looks like clear skies, so I'd really like to get out there if I can. I don't even need to image anything, if I could just successfully polar align, then maybe I could just use the GOTO to look at various objects through the eyepiece that came with the 130PDS.

[lensman57]

It's an HEQ5 Pro SynScan with GOTO, and yes I can see Polaris

You do not need to set up the setting circles, etc. Level the mount and with the polar scope pointing north. You can try and set the Altitude roughly before hand for your location. Set the scope and properly balance it for whatever you want to do, imaging or observing. working from home position ( scope looking towards to  Polaris and the weights hanging down in front of the leg which is pointing north ) place Polaris on the small circle of the Polar scope using the ALT and AZ adjustment bolts and becareful with the ALT bolts as these can be made to bend under pressure.  Do not worry about hour angle and all that stuff now. Set the SynScan handset for your location ( get the co ordinates from a smart phone or Google map ) and then do a 1 Star align on a very bright and recognisable star such as Vega or Deneb. Using the widest EP and using the arrows of the handset find the star and centre  it and press enter to accept then without moving anything align the finder to the star ( you can try and align the finder with the scope using Polaris if you are sure it is the right star at the beginning ). Now your finder and scope are aligned. Now do a 2 or 3 star align again and this time the sky is mapped to the handset so you can find targets . You can now do a 3 Star align and do a Polar align routine from the alignment menu ( just scroll down from a 3 star align prompt ) after a couple of cycles your PA will be more than good enough for observing and even some basic imaging. Forget all that mumble jumble about setting circles, most modern computerised mounts don't even have these anymore. As you gain experience and confidence then you can try and use a laptop with a CDC and EQMOD to control the mount but for now the SynScan handset is more than good enough. I have not seen the need for CDC and EQMOD control as yet, have a look a my sig link if you wish.

Regards,

A.G

A.G

[Owmuchonomy]

Hi all

I've got my basic unguided imaging setup ready to go (HEQ5, 130PDS, 1100D etc), but unsurprisingly I'm struggling to make a proper start. I did manage to get outside with the mount (the telescope won't even be involved until I get the mount setup correct), and I got to a point where I got stuck, and ended up with lots of questions.

I attempted to put a step by step guide together for myself, based on various guides from other people, and I've attached it to this thread. It has various questions in the form of comments, which I'll need to find the answers to if I am to get anywhere.

So it would be much appreciated if someone could have a look at my guide and see if it is correct or not, and also if someone could help me with my questions. I'd be happy to post the contents of the guide here, along with the questions, but it is rather long.

Hi Ian, attached is your original doc with track change and also a clean copy.  Basically, the guide contained unnecessary steps.  Any questions please come back to me.

HEQ5 Setup - My Step by Step_clean.doc

HEQ5 Setup - My Step by Step.doc

[happy-kat]

May I suggest even though it has its limitations/imperfections that to start with whilst getting to grips with everything is it out of the question to image out of one of your flat windows.

[ianpwilliams]

Thanks, but the only issue with that is that the windows rotate (they don't open fully), and there's condensation on them all the time.

And thanks for the updated step-by-step. It just occurred to me that the questions I had in my document didn't show up because they were comments. So these were the questions:

1 - The RA Clock doesn’t go from 0-360, it goes from 0 to 24 left and right and right to left (left to right is Northern hemisphere I believe?). I’ve marked the three 90 degree rotations anyway though

2 - I could only get the mount Altitude to go as far as 50 (i.e. with the Skywatcher arrow pointing at 50), at which point the rear altitude bolt was all the way in, so I could go no further. So how would I get to 60?

3 - I couldn’t see anything through the Polar Scope when I looked through it. When the mount was switched off, I just saw black, and when it was switched on, I just saw orange. Maybe the brightness was wrong?

4 - (this related to rotating the RA to match the amount of time since the most recent Polaris transit, which I note you have removed) Do I rotate the RA to the left based on the top numbers e.g. from 12 to halfway between 15 and 16, or do I rotate it to the right (by the same amount)?

5 - Even when I lock the RA Clock with the thumbscrew, it sometimes moves when I rotate the RA. Will I just have to hold it in place? Or should I try tightening the thumbscrew more with pliers?

6 - Should any of the RA Clock, RA Clutch, DEC Clock, DEC Clutch be locked once everything is up and running?

[ianpwilliams]

So with that updated document, I should be doing everything there, in that order? So I should mount the scope before polar aligning (because I thought I read somewhere to polar align before mounting the scope, to reduce the stress on the alt az bolts)?

So for visual would I polar align by eye, then set up the GOTO, and that's it?

And for imaging, would I polar align by eye, the set up the GOTO, then fine tune polar align? Although the "Setting up GOTO" section is the same as the "Polar Alignment Fine Tuning" section, so presumably I would just skip that section if doing imaging.

And when you say align the long reticule line with Mizar in the other eye, what reticule line do you mean? Also, this could be a possible problem for me, because I wouldn't be able to see Mizar without my glasses, and I can't look through the polar scope eyepiece with my glasses. So I would have to find a way of wearing my glasses on only my left eye!

Also, how do I check what "Mel Maz" error is?

[iksose7]

If you dont have a polar cap on the mount and still cant see stars through the polar scope, then another thing to check is that the DEC axis is rotated to allow the hole inside to line up correctly. Another mistake i have made in the past!

So the darks have to be the same length?? So if I did 10 x 60-second subs (I believe that 60-90 subs is the top end without guiding?), then I would be looking at doing another hour doing 10 x 60-second darks? That's a pain!

That is right, the darks are the same exposure length and ISO as your lights but you dont need to take as many, although the more the better. I usually take around 20 which can be time consuming when using 600 second subs. Like i said the more the better but around 20-30 should be fine.

As it happens, I have just bought a laptop, which should arrive on Monday. It's old and secondhand, but I'm assured that its fine for all the astronomy programs

Thats great! My imaging laptop is also a cheap refurbished thing and does its job fine.

Oddly I've always felt like a laptop could be even more hassle than no laptop, mainly because I'm sure I would need to sit down to operate it , and no doubt it wouldn't do everything for me, so I'd be constantly getting up and down and switching between laptop and mount. And I wonder how long it would take me to get to grips with all of the different programs. But if you or anyone else can reassure me that it does make life easier, then please do!

If your laptop does manage to run the software i have suggested and you dedicate a few nights to learning it, it will make things much easier in the long run. Almost every talented imager i know uses software and the ones who dont are in the progress of moving up to doing so. Thats not to say you need it to produce great images though! Its just my experience that before i did i wasted more clear nights trying to image than actually imaging.

The only time you have to stand up is when you polar align and focus. I have my laptop snuggled up right next to my rig so i can sit there and focus while looking at the star on the screen so the only time i am stood up is at the start of the session when i need to get my alignment. The only bad thing i found with software is you have to learn how to use it, and the good thing is that its not as hard as you might think! there is plenty of tutorials on Youtube, via Google, Yahoo groups ect to show you how. My personal favorite bit of software is Astrotortilla. If i want to find a target i just use my planetarium to slew roughly to the area it is in, run Astrotortilla and within a couple minutes it will put it dead centre. No need for any star alignment. If you decide to go down the software route then feel free to PM me if you need any assistance! 

Callum

[ianpwilliams]

Thanks again!

Can anyone help with the other questions? I was particularly confused about now being able to get the latitude past 50.

[ianpwilliams]

This is such a tough hobby to get started in. Every time one question is answered another three come up!

[Owmuchonomy]

Thanks again!

Can anyone help with the other questions? I was particularly confused about now being able to get the latitude past 50.

If you are having this problem there is something wrong with your mount set up. Post a photo so we can see.

[RichM63]

2 - I could only get the mount Altitude to go as far as 50 (i.e. with the Skywatcher arrow pointing at 50), at which point the rear altitude bolt was all the way in, so I could go no further. So how would I get to 60?

Just unscrew the bolt (both) and move by hand.

I only ever treat these bolts as 'stay' bolts and never use them to move a fully loaded mount. In other words, perform altitude adjustment with no telescope, and no counter weights, then fine tune and finger tighten before adding all the other stuff.

Idem, don't carry the mount by the CW bar, you would be levering against the bolts.

PS, why 60, that would put you somewhere up near Helsinki? Edinburgh is 55.57N

[Owmuchonomy]

So with that updated document, I should be doing everything there, in that order? So I should mount the scope before polar aligning (because I thought I read somewhere to polar align before mounting the scope, to reduce the stress on the alt az bolts)? Yes, it has worked for me for 7 years. You could Polar align before mounting the scope but then you are introducing the chance of upsetting everything when you add your kit. Plus, drift alignment is done fully loaded so I don't see any advantage in doing PA with a naked mount.

So for visual would I polar align by eye, then set up the GOTO, and that's it? Yes.

And for imaging, would I polar align by eye, the set up the GOTO, then fine tune polar align? Yes. Although the "Setting up GOTO" section is the same as the "Polar Alignment Fine Tuning" section, so presumably I would just skip that section if doing imaging. No it isn't. For visual run the 3 star alignment. This attempts to take out cone error for your GoTo either side of the meridian.

And when you say align the long reticule line with Mizar in the other eye, what reticule line do you mean? The long axis line in your Polariscope view.  Also, this could be a possible problem for me, because I wouldn't be able to see Mizar without my glasses, and I can't look through the polar scope eyepiece with my glasses. So I would have to find a way of wearing my glasses on only my left eye! I manage OK with my glasses. It doesn't have to be incredibly accurate as you are just accounting for your local time.

Also, how do I check what "Mel Maz" error is? The handset tells you after each 2 star alignment.

[Owmuchonomy]

Thanks, but the only issue with that is that the windows rotate (they don't open fully), and there's condensation on them all the time.

And thanks for the updated step-by-step. It just occurred to me that the questions I had in my document didn't show up because they were comments. So these were the questions:

1 - The RA Clock doesn’t go from 0-360, it goes from 0 to 24 left and right and right to left (left to right is Northern hemisphere I believe?). I’ve marked the three 90 degree rotations anyway though

2 - I could only get the mount Altitude to go as far as 50 (i.e. with the Skywatcher arrow pointing at 50), at which point the rear altitude bolt was all the way in, so I could go no further. So how would I get to 60?

3 - I couldn’t see anything through the Polar Scope when I looked through it. When the mount was switched off, I just saw black, and when it was switched on, I just saw orange. Maybe the brightness was wrong?

4 - (this related to rotating the RA to match the amount of time since the most recent Polaris transit, which I note you have removed) Do I rotate the RA to the left based on the top numbers e.g. from 12 to halfway between 15 and 16, or do I rotate it to the right (by the same amount)?

5 - Even when I lock the RA Clock with the thumbscrew, it sometimes moves when I rotate the RA. Will I just have to hold it in place? Or should I try tightening the thumbscrew more with pliers?

6 - Should any of the RA Clock, RA Clutch, DEC Clock, DEC Clutch be locked once everything is up and running?

Forget the clocks. 6., the clutches should be locked as I described in the modified documents.

[ianpwilliams]

Here is the mount situation. It's a bit dark, but the back bolt is all the way in, but the latitude is at 45.

[carastro]

 I was going to ask was whether it's ok to have the mount taller

Yes, have it at a comfortable height and put your accessory tray on first before checking the level otherwise it can spread the legs further and mess up the levelling you've already done.

 I have no top cap

 I advise getting a replacement cap or some other method to cover this hole to prevent anything dropping into the hole.

PA routine.

This seems overly complicated to me.  

All you have to do is rotate the Dec so you can see through your polar scope.  Switch on the light and then rotate the RA axis until you get the small polar circle in the right place for the time and location.  Then use the Alt/AZ and latitude bolts to get polaris into that little circle.  To find the right position for polaris I use some free software called 

polarfinder.  Of course you will need your laptop to do this.

I got the link to this on Astronomy Shed

The paragraph you have entitled PA fine tuning, is actually just an alignment procedure, and you should ideally be choosing stars on the opposite sides of the meridian, - take what the handset offers you (you can scroll down the list to choose one you know, or if the one offered is behind a tree/house).

I use a laptop and a handset - I also use EQMod but quite honestly prefer the handset, so just use what suits you best.  

Don't use live view whilst capturing it heats the sensor unecessarily so i have been told.  

Focus, I am sure you know this, but it didn;t state in your list that the central spoke must be dead centre for focus with the Bahtoniv mask.

Don't forget your flats and Bias, absolutely essential to getting a good and workable result.

HTH

Carole 

[carastro]

Looking at the photo of your mount head.  I have been told that those dials are not always accurate.  If you can see polaris through the polarscope then you don't need to move that dial any further.  However I notice you have the original bolts, and these are reputed to bend easily and stronger replacement bolts are generally recommended plus a bit of copper grease lubrication.  You don't want to end up with a bent bolt and then having to drill it out.

You might find the replacement bolts a better length too.

Carole 

[RichM63]

Here is the mount situation. It's a bit dark, but the back bolt is all the way in, but the latitude is at 45.

See post #17, unscrew the bolt!

[Mick J]

Perhaps swap the bolts over.......... the mount needs to rotate anticlockwise (see picture) you will get there, remember that these bolts are quite soft and the surface the end of the bolt locks against forms a greater angle the higher you go, this helps the bolt to bend,  look inside when the mount is off the tripod.  Once bent they can be difficult to get out.  They are a standard metric thread and another bolt from a local shop would do at a push, we modified the cam shape on our mount (a bit of taking to bits required), there are posts in the diy areas, and you may find kits of bolt on parts.  Just tight enough, not super tight is what you want. 

[Mick J]

Sorry - clockwise..............