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Do we need Maxim?


Zadoq

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Hi,

We're about to replace our DSLR with an Atik CCD camera.

We've heard and read a lot about people raving about Maxim, but we're a bit confused about it...

We currently use AstroTortilla for plate solving, Backyard EOS for camera control, PHD2 for guiding and EQMosaic for slewing to the right places when creating a mosaic while in the field. For processing our images, we use Deep Sky Stacker and Photoshop.

When we get our CCD, we won't be able to use Backyard EOS anymore, but I've heard that Capture, the imaging software Atik CCDs come with, is not bad. Since we are going to also get an Atik filter wheel, Capture should also be able to control it.

We were initially going to bite the bullet and get Maxim too because lots of people have been enthusiastic about it, but the more we look at it, the more we see functionality that another piece of software is already providing for us.

We might be missing some important functionality Maxim provides, so could you let us know if and why it is better than the tools we currently use?

Does Maxim become more valuable with additional kit, e.g. when there is a auto-focuser or a dome to control?

Thanks

Nico & Carly

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I have had Maxim for a while, but for the last couple of years I have only ever used it for guiding, leaving capture (with an Atik) to Artemis Capture.  Despite using Capture for several years now, I am not its biggest fan;  new releases do baffling things that make the programme LESS helpful.  For example, the "display" window in the newest version of Capture flicks back to the middle of the screen after every subexposure, regardless how you've arranged your windows.  Running multiple versions of Capture for imaging and guiding has been nothing short of a disaster for me.  Also, despite assertions from almost every other user of the programme, my early experience was that using the "auto" feature in the display window actually affected the final .fits files in such a way as to render dark frames useless.  I still have the darks to prove it.

A friend finally convinced me to consider using Maxim more extensively, and in the last 6 weeks I have come to realise what everyone is raving about.  In no small part is this down to his continued support and help, actually remote desktopping my obsy PC so I can see what he does and learn, from the other side of the country.

Yes, you can do all the things that Maxim can do with half a dozen other programmes, but what makes Maxim so fantastic is that it can do all those things.  Why is that good?  Well, you have one programme running instead of five or six, for starters.  OK, so you also have ASCOM and probably EQMOD doing their thing underneath, and maybe Cartes du Ciel or something for pointing the scope, but Maxim does all the heavy lifting.  And everything talks to everything else.  Until now, it often felt like my observatory PC was a committee.  Now it's just one guy doing everything efficiently.

Consider the implications of this.  For one, you can dither.  Depending on the CCD you're getting, that alone could be invaluable in combatting noise.  You can still plate solve, but in a way that works with everything else you're using.  I'm now using Maxim for entire imaging sessions.  I'm adding motorised focusers to my scopes this autumn, and once it is done, I'll have control of those over to Maxim, too, and ask it to check focus periodically during the night, whilst I am asleep.  And when I return to the data the next day, the same programme can stack and process the images.

I haven't even dipped my toe into what Maxim can do, but so far it has worked admirably in everything I have asked of it.  The only hitches I have had have been technical ones, most likely relating to USBs and silly things like that.

I am now a total Maxim convert.  Getting your head around it is absolutely worth it.  

SHORT VERSION:  It's better because it does everything you describe in one programme, meaning everything works fluidly together without all the faff involved in bridging lots of different software

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Maxim DL like Photoshop has become the "defacto" standard....

As mentioned, there are now many programs which equal the functionality.

I use AstroArtV5 Why?

It does image aquisition with ALL my cameras (DSLR and CCD's) it guides and can do plate solving, as well a pre-processing (flats/ darks/ stacking etc.) and almost all the post processing you'd want to do. All in one package.

The NEQ6pro mount is controlled via EQMod and I can work remotely using Teamviewer.

Bang per buck I think it is grossly underrated.....

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It sounds like you have everything sorted at the moment - Shame that BYE won't control the Atik. APT will though and I would imagine that would be very similar to what you already use, in that way you'd not have to change your workflow very much.

Artemis works well for capture - It's a simple programme that does what it says on the tin - It will serve you well.

I do use Maxim and I rate it highly, it works for me.

My word of caution would be don't ever feel pushed into using something just because everyone else uses it and raves about it. If you have a system that works (and Artemis will) then stick with it. I find that when there's specific software out there (such as a processing software programme that I could name) that people are made to feel that if they don't use it they are somehow less of an imager. Stick to your guns and use what works for you!

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Sounds like good advice to me Sara :)  I had wondered about Maxim myself but I don't need it at present (I mean when it's a clear night) and find Artemis handles multiple cameras fine - I have run three Atik cameras at a time without a problem.  Whether I can find something else to handle auto-focussing when I get the ASCOM code into my multi-focuser control remains to be seen.  Maxim is expensive.

Maybe I should just add that I haven't upgraded to the latest Artemis software due to the image centring problem.  I imagine this will be fixed in the next update - at least I should hope so!!

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I use MaxIm for image capture, guiding with dithering, some mount control, capturing calibration data and applying it, stacking, aligning and plate solving. It carries out these tasks admirably but I rarely use its post processing features as I prefer to move into PhotoShop to do that. MaxIm is an excellent program with a rich set of features but, in fairness, a combination of other cheaper (or free - DSS and PHD) software will do similar tasks. However, MaxIm does it all in an integrated manner - I love it but it is not the only kid on the block.

Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

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Hmm.. well I think my advise would be try Artemis Capture first. If you have everything else running ok then that is by far the less interruptive progression and it comes free with the camera. Maxim is a way deeper program with a steeper learning curve and you need to be prepared to take it on understanding that you may be starting from scratch again. Better to get used to moving from DSLR to CCD first IMO. Also, I'm not so sure that right now is the best time for Maxim, V6 has only recently been introduced. From my experience (with 3 Atiks) V6 is not yet ready for what I would call a production environment. I've reverted back to V5.24, which is rock solid for me. Currently, up to V6.07 I've had odd intermittent lockups & BSOD's on both of the systems I've run it on. That's not acceptable (or safe) for running an Obsy unattended.

Don't get me wrong, I like Maxim & of course in some ways I'm tied to it for the automation of the Obsy, Focusmax etc.. but its not a cheap decision to take if you're not going to use/need all of those features.

If you do want to explore more capable packages, another well worth considering that won't break the bank is SGP. http://www.mainsequencesoftware.com/ You can also use PHD2 with it too so one less thing to learn.

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Actually, all us remote guys need Maxim today. My personal opinion is that it is pretty crappy software, generally speaking. It does have one major advantage though, and that is its COM interface. Said interface lets us write other software packages that can use Maxim as a back-end for, just to mention one example, snap the pictures. ACP uses Maxim to control the camera, and it does that reasonably well.

I do not use Maxim for anything but as a back-end to something else. I am, however, spending considerable time and effort in creating a Maxim-free world ;)

/per

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I dont like it although I have been pushed that way if I want to guide with the dual chip sbig, I have decided to sit tight use what i have at present, SGP and Nebulosity until someone finally supports dual scope dithering on the same mount, until that point, my money is staying in my pocket :)

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Artemis Capture is great, with few foibles and only one if you use the sequencer and the Atik wheel. The sequencer over-rides everything except the sub frame window used for focus, so you must de-activate the sub frame before starting a sequence. That apart, why would you use anything else?

If you want to make toast, use an automated Marmite spreader which cuts in four minutes before your next filter change, pre-heat your underpants when the weather forecast predicts more than 1 degree of frost, spend three years learning the software before taking a picture and having an internet mortgage organized so you can buy it then you absolutely do need Maxim DL. If all you want to do is take pictures with an Atik camera then use Artemis....

Olly

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APT, PHD, AsCom-EQmod, CdC, AstroTortilla.  Brilliant.  And all free (well APT costs £8) and by and large works brilliantly, seamlessly and reliably on Windows 7 on an old laptop.  Only paid for SW that costs proper money I use is PI.  Now, would I buy one of the commercial offers?  Yes of course I would.  But I don't want to waste a precious clear night working out a new workflow for little apparent value over what I use already.

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Thank you all for your views and information. We found your replies very instructive, especially since we weren't aware of Bahtinov Grabber or APT...

For now, we are going to give Artemins Capture a try, as well as APT since it looks very similar to Backyard EOS, which we're used to.

In the future, if we wander down the road of automation, we'll probably give Maxim a spin since it comes with a 30-day trial period.

Once again, thanks for all your comments.

Nico & Carly

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I despise MaxIm. The interface is just so bland and 1990s. Try Sequence Generator Pro. Much, much cheaper and much nicer to use, especially with the Framing & Mosaic Wizard addon. You can also install an offline Astrometry.net plate solving service to get free, effective plate solving for it. Autoguiding needs to be done with an external program such as PHD however. That's a plus in my opinion though. 

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I despise MaxIm. The interface is just so bland and 1990s. Try Sequence Generator Pro. Much, much cheaper and much nicer to use, especially with the Framing & Mosaic Wizard addon. You can also install an offline Astrometry.net plate solving service to get free, effective plate solving for it. Autoguiding needs to be done with an external program such as PHD however. That's a plus in my opinion though.

I couldn't agree more. Only advantage is automation...

/p

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I've used Nebulosity 3, APT and now SG Pro.....and I like them all, but as an "all in" imaging package, I don't think SGPro can be beaten in terms of functionality and value for money.

I know you can look up SGPro's features on their website, but I just want to describe how my imaging sessions work with it.

I preload an image of my intended target and SGP will plate solve in about 20 secs using the local Astrometry server. (this can be done in advance and saved)

It then slews the scope to the target, sets the filter to luminence and plate solves again until the target is centred - normally to within 3 or 4 pixels.

Then, it sets the filter as defined in my sequence and autofocuses using stars across the whole image - without slewing off to a focus star (unless I  tell it to - which I don't normally)

SGPro will wait for PHD to settle and when it does, it starts the sequence.

During the sequence, you can set SGPro to refocus every few frames, if the temperature changes or the sequence calls for a filter change. I refocus every 0.5 degrees tem change.

It'll dither PHD between frames.

It'll do a meridian flip automatically (or you can force one at a time to suit you), re-plate solve to the target, refocus and flip the PHD calibration data.

You can define and save preset exposures and numbers for flat field generation and all sorts of other good stuff........for £60!

How much is Maxim + Pinpoint + an Observatory control program?

Oh yes ..and there's a free 45 day trial.

Can you tell I'm an SGPro fan?

Steve

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The thing with Maxim is that it can control all the devices and act as a back end for a more suitable automation software. This is how CCD Autopilot and ACP work. They use Maxim to shoot the camera, control guiding and mess with the dome and stuff. The "sequencing" is done above that level.

ACP takes a list of what you want to do and splits all work into hour-long sessions. These sessions are evaluated every hour and the one most suitable is run - for an hour - after which everything is reevaluated. The evaluation process includes target suitability based on altitude, moon avoid, distance to moon, sky clarity and what have you. Basically, you can load ACP up with a bunch of cool objects you want to image and leave at that for a year or two.

When the weather clears, no matter if it is at 2 a.m. or early in the evening, it opens the roof and grabs what is best at that time. If the weather clouds up it will close the roof and stay put. Clear weather again will cause it to open and evaluate what is best run at the present. This goes on and on, and in the end you find yourself having utilized every single hour of clear skies possible. The amount of data you get is staggering!

So, that is what I use Maxim for. I do not use it to guide (I don't guide, period), I don't shoot sequences with it, I don't use it for processing. It can do all those things and it probably does them well - with a 1990 user interface and hangups on ASCOM driver accesses...

For me, Maxim is a back-end. I am contemplating writing my own, though..............

/per

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for all your input. I've found the post enlightening and in some cases something to aspire to.

Since we've now also purchased a motor focuser, we thought we'd give Seqence Generator Pro a go (trial version for now)

I must say that first impressions were very good. It has a lot of the functionality we were hoping for.

Since the weather has been so bad lately, I spent quite a bit of time using the simulators. We also hooked up inside with the proper kit and tried what was possible inside.

We did our prep for a clear night and saved a sequence ready for it.

Then finally yesterday, we had the opportunity to try everything out.

After a few teething issues with plate solving (we use a local astrometry.net solver), it finally got going, but not before getting an exception. I clicked "Continue"

It ran for a couple of hours when I went to check if the automated meridian flip had occurred as I had requested it, but no...

I waited a bit longer for it (one more sub than the one that went through the meridian) but still nothing (I had the checkbox asking for a flip to occur ticked)

So I stopped the sequence and restarted it (I think I had to reset it but not 100% sure about that anymore). As the mount slewed to the target, it performed a meridian flip

It went through plate solving and centering as it was an option I had set for the target, then when it got to the slew stage it got stuck there for what seemed like longer than it should have. It finally came back with an error saying that the meridian flip failed although the flip had occurred a few minutes previously.

The rest of the night went well enough.

Then early this morning, using the same instance of SGPro I used last night, I created a new sequence for bias and darks. Because the camera had warmed up after the sequence from the night before, I got it to cool down over 10 minutes and added a 10 minutes delayed start to the sequence.

Pressed "Run sequence" then a few seconds later a message from Windows telling me that SGP had stopped responding. The process then got terminated (not sure if by a crash or by Windows, but not by me).

I had to start  a new instance of SGP and that time taking the bias and darks was fine

I understand that I probably made some mistakes regarding setting things up (eg the meridian flip), so I am not much concerned about that (although I did read the whole manual waiting for clear skies).

What concerns me is the apparent instability of the software. What it does is great but only if it can be relied on.

So what are people's experience of SGP from a stability point of view?

Thanks

Nico

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I have found it to be good, however there a few thing you need to make sure of first.

If using autofocus get it good before you start.

check that your plate solving is working reliably during the day and all your image scales a correct.

if you doing a blind sync and solve make sure its dark enough to do so.

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