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starting astrophotographer


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Hi all,

Just signed up on this forum, because after twenty years of letting an old hobby gather dust, I am starting to get serious.

I've always been interested in astronomy, and since the digital era started, in photography.

So now I'm thinking of combining the two. Being an avid photographer, I don't think I could take up astronomy and be satisfied with just the visual...

So, I already own a Canon 500D, and have tried it on one occasion to photograph the sun, on a Celestron C6. Quite nice. :-)

I've now ordered a T ring and adapter which I will be able to test on the Celestron C8 of a friend of mine. 

Obviously I will be buying my own telescope, but I'm terribly confused about what to look for...

Looking around on the net and various forums, the mount is paramount (pardon the pun), so at least a motorized EQ5 seems essential.

This will already eat up a big part of my budget. And this is the hard part: never having had a telescope, should I start out with visual, just to wet my appetite, with say a Skywatcher 130 or 150 newtonian, and save up in the meantime to be able to get serious with AP, or should I not waste any money, and go for AP straight away, after gathering the funds?

I will be viewing from my balcony (mediocre skies), a field close by (dark, but far from perfect), or mountain sites, suggested to me by others, which I still have to check out, but which sound promising (they organize astronomy trips there), which are just over 1 hour away by car.

So portability will be an issue... 70kgs of mount will not be an option (apart from the economy....)

I'm still making up my mind, but I think DSO are my favourite over planetary objects... But maybe circumstances will have something to say in my decision for the type of scope to buy... A dobson is out of the case, I think....: no room and no light...

I looked at various prices of CCD cameras... What do webcams, CCDs etc have as advantage over using a DSLR? Should I be looking into that from the start, or could I be happy with my Canon for a while?

Any opinions and advice will be much apreciated!

In the meanwhile, I will be attending an astrophotography course in November, so will be a lot the wiser, I hope... Luckily this course does not require owning a telescope already... :-)

Thanks!

Gerhard.

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I'd go for the HEQ5 which has better motors for finer response to autoguiding than the EQ5.

You could start with mount and camera lenses if the mount has hurt the budget for the moment!

A small Newt like the Skywatcher will give good pictures with a coma corrector. Check out Uranium 235's remarkable images on here.

Webcams etc have tiny chips but shoot many frames per second so they capture some good ones by pure luck, just because the sky was less turbulent for a fraction of a second. In a minute or so you should find you'll get enough good ones to stack them into something special. They are not intended for long exposures on deep sky objects which are too faint and often too big. They are used on moon and planets mainly.

A DSLR has a chip of the size which would be very expensive indeed in a CCD camera. Although I'm a CCD imager I can see why people often go for DSLRs. Big chip for low cost.

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!i=2266922474&k=Sc3kgzc

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I agree with Olly, if you're going to get into imaging, then buy the right mount and scope from the outset.  You already have a DSLR and that will certainly get you started.

The HEQ5 is a well tried and tested mount for imaging.  

Based on personal experience and the usual recommendations, the ED80 is a good scope for getting into Astro imaging.  Make sure it is an APO (I am pretty sure all ED80s are).  This combined with the DSLR will give you a fairly wide FOV to enable you to get the larger objects such as the Andromeda galaxy and Orion nebula.  It won't be great for smaller stuff however such as galaxies.  You can still image them but they will be small.  Most people tend to own more than one scope for different targets.  

The DSLR will give you limited success as it has an IR filter which excludes stuff in the Ha wavelength and most people get the IR filter removed/replaced with glass or a Baader filter.  But to get started you can use it without doing this.  

Carole 

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Thanks for the reactions!

I looked for the HEQ5 mount, and it seems it is way above my initial budget (not more than 500 euros....):

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-heq5-pro-synscan.html

Adding to that an ED80 and I would be spending like this:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-80ed-pro-heq5-pro.html

This kind of money would mean having to save for a while, and rely on my friend to do any visual or photography (btw, this friend now told me he's thinking about building his own Dobson... he's talking 1 metre diameter, but I think he must be kidding... :-) ).

But as I gather from both of you, for astrophotography it's better to wait out and buy a good mount when you have the money, instead of following the urge to at least view some nice stuff, and buying a skywatcher 130 with EQ3...?

Is there any particular reason you recommend a refractor? are they better for AP? I am kind of not really looking for those, as they are quickly very pricey... You also mention it won't be great on DSO, which I will be focusing on, once I'm off... I mean, Andromeda, and the Orion nebula are beautiful, and I guess it will be a long time before I will be able to take any kind of worthwhile picture of them, but they are only 2 objects.... :-)

I understand that for different purposes, different scopes are needed. But after buying my first one (that is, if I buy a serious one, and not the SW 130 I mentioned above first), I'm guessing it will be years before I buy another, if at all... So, ideally I would like a decent "all-round" scope, that does DSO nicely... (as I gather wanting a scope that does planetary AND DSO well, would be wishing too much...).

Also because for good AP, I will need lots of accessories, like autoguiding hardware and software (for starters, I do not own a laptop, just a desktop).

I can use the EQ5 mount also to mount the 300mm lens of my DSLR? and take nice pictires of the Pleiades, etc? I saw this post:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/92309-attaching-slr-to-eq5-mount/

But I'm not quite sure how this works, but once I get the mount, it will be clearer what kind of hardware I need for that...

Thanks again for your trouble!! :-)

Gerhard.

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The Skywatched 130P-DS is a 130mm reflector that is tailored for being useable for imaging.

It has a better focuser unit.

The primary mirror is positioned to better reach focus with a DSLR.

For observring you get 130mm of apperature.

It is cheaper than the ED80.

Thought you might like to add it to the items you were researching.

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You could do a lot worse than getting hold of the book 'Making Every Photon Count' from the book section on the FLO website. Read it ..... twice ...... then think about what you need and why ...... then read it again!!! Then you will know what will work best and why!

So far the advise given is good. An HEQ5 really is a good starting point. You can do imaging on less, of course you can, but you need to decide whether you could cope with the frustration that this will probably bring with regards to throwing away subs that are not up to scratch. With the HEQ5 this will not happen often!

Have a look on the imaging section - Be realistic about the sorts of images you want to achieve. If you want to reach the best, then it will cost you a lot of money, there is simply no way around that.

Meanwhile with the mount and a camera lens you can get very good results indeed. I presume that as an avid photographer you will already have good lens' - That's where I'd start.

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I have definitely already considered the SW 130 PDS. Was first looking at the celestron 130 newt, but found out the SW is another level (everything's relative, of course :-) ).

I already found other mentions of that book. Will definitely have to check it out.

GORGEOUS photos on flickr, swag72! That's ideally what I'd like to do as well... But I guess I have a long long way to go... and lots of money to spend (not understanding all the acronyms and indications you give on the photos, so not having a complete idea of what is involved in doing those photos...).

Unfortunately I AM an avid photographer, but with low budget... Never got past the standard lenses... 

You guys leave me very doubtful.... I really want to kickstart this latent hobby, so I really would like to buy that SW 130...

Maybe get some initial photographing done, and get an appetite for more... HEQ5, etc....What about portability of that HEQ5? Remember for good seeing I'll have to take the car out more than an hour...

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Hi Gerhard - it really is a minefield once you start looking. I was in a similar position to you a few months back and have cobbled together an imaging "rig" with the minimum level of equipment to get going. I posted about it here:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/227483-deep-sky-imaging-from-scratch/?p=2451312

if you want to have a read.

As the very basics, it still mounts up with all the little bits you need to get eveything to work, like extension tubes and Bhatinov masks.

And, the temptation to upgrade will start to bite....quickly....although I am now broke, so will have to save up for a few months before I upgrade in any substantial way.

But, using the EQ3-2 and a (relatively) cheap refractor, I have been able to get a few pictures - although I have only had a few goes at it - so I am pretty sure there s more fun to be had with this basic rig while I learn the imaging ropes.

I also posted here

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/228105-reaching-my-limits/

about my first couple of attempts, so have a look at those images as well - I am sure I can get better and need to develop my processing skills (if you'll pardon the pun) which is the next step. Definitely read Making Every Photon Count, as recommended above!

And, if absolutely restricted from a budget point of view, a good sturdy tripod and camera will get you started with widefield star imaging as has also been mentioned - you can play around with those in Deep Space Stacker and programmes like Photoshop to get used to the processing you need to do after stacking the image - so you are ready for getting that HEQ5.

There is a massive amount to take in, but it is a lot of fun (if frustrating at times) so good luck!

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Hi Marky1973! 

I had a very quick look at your shots, and that looks already very promising!! It's making my mouth water!! :-)

I am just a bit doubtful about how I will get enough time to do all those exposures... I haven't read the posts yet, so maybe this is a question already answered, but how do you "program" your exposures? Do you have a fixed spot at your home with good seeing, or do you need to go out every time, and get another few exposures?

As I understand now, it takes a few nights of decent weather to have all those exposures, and then another few hours of post-production to make one of those photos...?

I already downloaded a software for stacking (AutoStakkert), but maybe others are better...? I used this for a video I made of the sun, and it had to process all afternoon for one video of about a minute... (recent desktop with 8 GB RAM and SSD )

But as I said: if you can obtain photos like the ones in your post, with a relatively beginner setup, than, maybe I can hope!!! :-D

thanks again!

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Thanks Gerhard! Both those images (and the two others I have tried, but less succesfully) have been captured in one sitting.

Obviously the more exposures you want to take and the longer the individual exposures, the more time you need to set aside. From playing around with my set-up I am heading towards 90 second exposures as optimal with my set-up and will try that again next time I have a chance at Andromeda and will aim to do more than I did last time.

I use the basic Canon software that came with my 1100d and you can use that on a laptop to set all the camera settings and prepare timed sequences. So you can programme it to take 50 x 60 second exposures at ISO 800 (or whatever settings you want to use) and it will sit there and do it all for you! Obviously you need to make sure your mount is tracking the target, so the mount needs to be motorised.

Andromeda is currently accessible from my back garden which is north facing, so I jsut set up there with the laptop in the kitchen connected via USB - its getting cold out there!

I next want to try the Orion Nebula or something like a cluster (maybe Hercules) but the former is only visible in the early hours in my location at the moment and out the front of the house....which, although we have a green space available, I am likely to get funny looks from the neighbours and will have to sit out there with it as I don't have a 30ft Usb cable! So I can see myself searching for more northerly targets!

I have taken to taking a lower number of DARKS/FLATS and BIAS images to save time - although the FLATS and BIAS only take a few minutes - especially the BIAS images as they are done at 1/4000 of second (fastest exposure on my 1100d). The DARKS are taken on the same settings as the LIGHTS, but I drop to maybe half or two-thirds of the number to save a bit of time. If the nights are clear I may take the same number. But the last run I took started at 11pm, so was starting the DARKS at 1am and didn't want to be up all night - it was still 3am by the time I got to bed! (If some of that doesn't make sense, it will once you read Making every Photon!)

I will have to experiment with data taken over a few nights, but will wait until I have some good quality images across all nights.

Once I have the images I use the free Deep Space Stacker to stack the images. You will need the beta version (just google Deep Space Stacker) and it is quite straight forward - but there are plenty of guides on this site and on YouTube.

Once DSS has done its bit (usually about half an hour to 45 minutes on my laptop 6gig RAM 2.2ghz) I take the 16bit TIF file and play aruond in the GIMP programme - also free.

But I am just about to have a good look at the Star Tools programme (on free trial) to see how that can help.

As I said, the processing is a bigger learning curve that the imaging - and I am only just embarking on looking at that in any more than a rudimentary way - so still a lot of work to do! I am very much a novice, so really am experimenting with the process and how I go about it. They key is to learn not to get frustrated when things go wrong - and they will - just learn from it and try again!

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You are lucky to be able to do all from home. I will definitely have to load up the car and go either 5 mins, or more than one hour to have a good spot... So the cold will have to be faced!! :-)

more importantly, I do not have a laptop, so will have to do all those exposures by hand, once I get set up...

I still have to buy my first tripod, mount and scope, so... I already ordered the T2 ring & adapter, and the remote for my 500D. Also a red light torch. Amazon italian is doing a helluva job (literally, unfortunately) delivering those 4 things: 4 separate deliveries over the course of a month........

Anyway, the 5th November I'm starting an astrophotography course by a local group of enthousiasts. Maybe they'll also be able to suggest some good viewing spots a little closer to home :-)

Anyway, at the moment my idea is to buy a low end package SW 130 or 150 Newt, motorized if not too expensive, and start off with that. If motorized, I can contemplate hazarding AP... As I work in IT, I hope I will be able to manage all the post production.... :-)

In the meanwhile I'll be putting aside money for more serious stuff... And accessories as filters, etc...

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Well, I do have the garden, but I also have lots of light pollution, so I too need to get out to some better sites, but dragging all the equipment out puts me off, but I know the urge for better pictures will drive me out there eventually. I jsut need to get better at setting up and stripping down, so I can make the most of the time when I am out there.....and find some locations where I am less likely to get attacked! ;-)

When I mentioned a tripod, you can do some basic widefield imaging with a static photo tripod - I have a £30 tripod that works pretty well for that!

Whatever you do decide to go with, I am sure you will have fun and, even if you did go straight to an HEQ5 and SW80ED you'd probably be getting the bug to upgrade something soon after.....CCD cameras/filters/guidescopes etc etc! I don't think it ever ends!

Good luck!

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Seriously though, I'm a bit confused when you talk about static phptographing: I'd be getting traces, no? I tried to snap a "quick" 30sec photo of the pleiades the other noght, and all I got was vague traces...

I still have to check out the mountain viewing spot I mentioned above. They tell me that, as it is very dark and isolated, it's used in "recreations" besides astronomy as well.... So I might be disturbing some people.... eheheheh :-)

As I said before: I'll be doing the AP course in a while, and will let that influence my decision as well, but at the moment I'm thinking "take the SW 130 Newt (also recommended above by a "super-nova" as a good start) with ideally a motorized EQ3-2, and save up for HEQ5 and better scopes, while learning how to AP with the basic set up...

In the meanwhile I will try to read up here on the basics of AP: what are subs, what are light exposure, dark exposures, FLATS, etc... What are the various steps one has to take.... Stuff like that...

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Gerhard - give FLO a call - not sure I am convinced by the delivery estimate though!

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/clearance/hubble-cassegrain-reflector-telescope.html

For static shots you are going to be using as wide and angle as you can to increase the chance for longer exposures without trailing. I am not expert in that (or any AP for that matter) but you can get exposures up to 20 (even 30) seconds using a static tripod and a wide-angle. My Canon stock lens is the 15-55mm lens and I should be able to do some wide angle milky-way, constellation shots with it.

You can, of course, do star-trail shots where you deliberately go for trailing to give you an interesting effect. I have not experimented with either of these approaches with any real effort, but a quick GOOGLE for wide-angle ap should bring up any number of guides and advice - and obviously you have the SGL search function as well!

Loads of stuff on LIGHTS/DARKS/FLATS/BIAS on these pages and a great introduction in the Making Every Photon Count book.

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love these remarks:

"For best results use at high altitude. 

Buyer collects (we can provide bubble-wrap and polystyrene packing chips, if that helps). 
This sale is not covered by our 30-day returns policy."  :-DD
I really need to order that book. :-)
btw: if those Andromeda photos of yours were made in your "high lightpollution" backyard, then I can REALLY hope to make some good photos!! :-) The field near myhouse has some good light conditions, as long as it's not too close to the horizon in the direction of Turin... So Andromeda in this period should be doable.. 
I have to corrupt my celestron C8 friend to do some pictures once my remote and the adapters have arrived...
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very good advice!! I'd have bought a lemon (for my purposes...)!!

I just also read about the Coma corrector, which I maybe should have bought instead of the normal T adapter (as I understand it, they go in the same place, either the normal adapter, or the CC ) , but I also saw one price (100 euros), so probably that will be a later add-on as well...

so much reading to do.... :-DD

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Gerhard - you would need the mother of all USB cables to reach that scope!

And, more seriously, do have a think about what Kat mentioned - my little scope would not focus with my DSLR on its own so needed an extension tube that was an additional £25!

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Going back to some earlier posts.

You can often get well looked after astronomy mounts and scopes 2nd hand on UK AstroBuySell. This would bring your costs down a fair bit.  For the HEQ5, if you wanted to control it on the laptop, you don't need to buy the Synscan hanset so that will knock about £130 off the price if buying new.  

My ambition is to have a go at the hubble.... ;-)) You think they'll put it up on ebay, once they decommission it?? eheheheh...

FLO had this for sale on their site for a while not sure if it is still there.  Lol

Is there any particular reason you recommend a refractor? are they better for AP? I am kind of not really looking for those, as they are quickly very pricey... You also mention it won't be great on DSO,

Basically a refractor is easier to use for a learner, Newtonian's provided you get one that is made for imaging (there are problems with getting focus if not), are also good, but you have additional problems of collimation to contend with and refractors don't require that sort of maintenance.

The ED80 is a good scope for many DS images, it's just that in combination with the DSLR you will find that most galaxies (except for M31 and M33) will be disappointingly small.  

With a Newtonian, you might find the smaller objects are a nice size, but then you'll have to do a mosaic to fit some of the larger objects in and there are many of them apart from M31 and M42.

I look forward to seeing how you progress.

Carole 

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@carastro: I will be surfing the secondhand sites diligently! :-) Collimation is not a thing I would particularly avoid: I read some stuff here and there and it does not seem to be a huge problem, as long as the scope you have has good collimation possibilities (read somewhere about "Bob's Knobs" being the best....)

As I mentioned, I do not have a laptop, so that 130 quid is going to the Synscan, more likely than me buying a laptop specifically for this new hobby... I'm thinking that laptop would also have to have some serious power to do all the post production... But I wonder: do laptops exist specifically for this purpose? AP: only manage your DSLR, by setting shutter times, ISO, etc? Save the photos, then afterwards transfer them to the "real" computer, and do post production there?

@happy-kat: "moving the primary mirror up the tube"?? Gasp! Is that possible? Or is that serious DIY? I'm not much of a DIY man, unfortunately... Don't trust myself with precision optics... :-)

In your opinion is it better to spend more for the SW 130 PDS, or could I buy the SW 130 with an extension tube (haven't checked the prices yet)?

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The SW 130 people reading posts had to move the primary mirror up as a DIY job. The 130pds comes with the primary mirror already sorted for imaging and a much better focuser unit again lends to imaging. Not that I have personally used one and as I am a novice I don't want to recommend anything.

In my heritage 130p which has trusses I effectively move the mirror up nearly 4 inches.

Refractors from my own one I need a 2 inch extension tube easy peasey.

If you know you want to image then any telescope on your shortlist I would search and see if people have been able to use their dslr with it and if so was it a diy job to get it to focus.

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