Lodestar X2 w/NB Ha Filter

[HiloDon]

Having seen Chris A's work with a narrowband Ha filter, I decided to get one and try it with the mono Lodestar X2. I purchased the Orion 7nm Ha filter. Amazon had it for a good price with free shipping. Here are some examples of my first EAA viewing session last night. I was fighting a lot of cloud cover and moisture in the air (it even rained for about a half hour) and there was a near full moon, but I squeezed in some good views. I was very pleased with them. The emission nebula really pop out with great detail and depth. Very three dimensional. Even M27 has a unique look to it. Can't wait to try it on some more unusual objects. Let me know what you think.

One thing to note is that it really controls the star bloat.

Don

[Martin Meredith]

Excellent shots! You're getting a whole new perspective on these objects. The Eagle in particular is spectacular with the 3D effect  (I always think of the Hubble image when I see those star-forming regions), and the amount of nebulosity you're capturing in 75s for the Lagoon is tremendous. Looks like money well spent!

Martin

[Dave In Vermont]

Even with having been "filtered" through the internet, and otherwise having their pixels abused, I can clearly see what you mean by "very three dimensional." So this was with a 7nm Orion H-alpha, eh? I do believe I will look into these. I have a 35nm H-a from Baader. I'm planning to plug that into my MallinCam Jr PRO and see what it has to say. And now a 7nm is making it's way into my myriad filter-obsession...er...filter-collection.

Thank you for posting these! They speak volumes.

Clear & Dark Skies,

Dave

[HiloDon]

Martin and Dave,

Thanks for your comments. Dave's comment about the pixel abuse is on target. The images I had on the screen were making me say wow to myself. I saw some of the captures that Chris A got with the 7nm and his mono Mallincam and got the bug to try it. This was my first attempt at it. I think I still need to try some different exposures and stacking modes. The images here are converted low res JPEG to get them uploaded. Here's a link to Chris's bubble. I hope he doesn't mind me posting it. It's what inspired me to try it.

Don

[arkosg]

Great results Don! That X2 looks like a nice camera...

Keep in mind that Chris is using a bigger RC scope, guiding, and long, stacked integrations...

Cheers!

- Greg A

[PeterW]

What scope was used? I would go looking through the Sharpless catalogue for inspiration.... All halpha objects,

Peterw

[Paul81]

Wow - those are stunning Don! There is some exceptional detail in the nebulosity, I can see the Ha filter becoming a firm favourite and based on the evidence has made it onto my wish list of things to pick up at some point!! Well done!!

[HiloDon]

What scope was used? I would go looking through the Sharpless catalogue for inspiration.... All halpha objects,

Peterw

Peter,

I used a Meade 8" SCT OTA on an Atlas mount. The FR is an Optec .33 I spaced to give .4. I've already been looking through the Sharpless catalogue and galleries of emission nebula images.

Don

[HiloDon]

Wow - those are stunning Don! There is some exceptional detail in the nebulosity, I can see the Ha filter becoming a firm favourite and based on the evidence has made it onto my wish list of things to pick up at some point!! Well done!!

Thanks, Paul. Your LL s/w came through again. I can adjust the image I want in seconds. Next time out I want to try the other stacking modes and longer exposure times. I think I have my mount tracking well now. Sometimes the sum stacking gives me problems with registration even though I have the darks active. I guess we're all still experimenting a bit.

Don

[HiloDon]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their comments and Likes for my original post. I really enjoy the friendly confines of SGL and have learned much from all the members who post here. Look forward to learning more from you all.

Don

[hobsey]

Excellent results.

Seeing these images are making want to give video astronomy ago with my C8.

[HiloDon]

Excellent results.

Seeing these images are making want to give video astronomy ago with my C8.

Thanks, Anthony. Your C8 is ideal for EAA. You will probably need some focal reduction though.

Don

[hobsey]

You will probably need some focal reduction though.

Yeah, only really been reading up on it for the last couple of days.

[Chinapig]

Lovely images Don. Gives a seductive new slant on Lodestar imaging.

I've yet to make a final decision on whether to go for a mono or colour X2, but these narrowband results are definitely pushing me towards the mono version. Please forgive my narrowband imaging ignorance - I have yet to try it - but I'm presuming that the mono sensor will be a lot more successful with a Ha filter than the X2C?

Inspiring stuff...

Cheers

Simon

[HiloDon]

Thanks, Simon, and good question. I was wondering that myself. My understanding is that the Ha narrow band is in the deep red portion of the spectrum, so I would think that everything word be varying degrees of red. Perhaps someone knowledgeable on this will see this post and respond. I have the X2c also, so, when I get a chance, I'll try it and post the results here.

Don

[Paul81]

The Lodestar-C uses a Sony CCD which uses a CYGM sensor (Cyan, Yellow, Green, Magenta) as opposed to RGB. Both use a bayer arrangement.

What this means is that a Bayer RGB sensor will effectively only be sensitive to Ha on its red pixels, so only 1/3 of the pixels. (in a 4x4 grid there are 1xR, 2xG and 1xB), thus basically a lower resolution.

The CYGM sensor though is sensitive to Ha in the R and Y pixels (in a 4x4 grid there are 1xC, 1xY, 1xG and 1xM), so you get 1/2 the pixels.

Still not quite like mono, but not as bad as RGB based OSC sensors...

[Astrogate]

Martin and Dave,

Thanks for your comments. Dave's comment about the pixel abuse is on target. The images I had on the screen were making me say wow to myself. I saw some of the captures that Chris A got with the 7nm and his mono Mallincam and got the bug to try it. This was my first attempt at it. I think I still need to try some different exposures and stacking modes. The images here are converted low res JPEG to get them uploaded. Here's a link to Chris's bubble. I hope he doesn't mind me posting it. It's what inspired me to try it.

Don

Hi Don

I did not mind at all and glad to help out. I captured on a different night another Bubble nebula image in Ha experimenting with my new amp glow masks and here is the results which seems better than my previous image using the Miloslick amp glow filter. Glad your having fun with the Orion 7 nm Ha filter and really nice images you captured.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47296963@N08/15517243565/

Cheers,

Chris A

Astrogate

[HiloDon]

Thanks, Chris.

Very nice image. I saw in some other forum that you were developing the new amp glow mask procedure. One question I always had was what causes the amp glow and why don't we see it in the Lodestar? I think the sensors are essentially the same. Does it have something to do with the gain boost in the MC?

I am enjoying the Ha NB filter and have you to thank for it. We have another tropical storm headed toward us so my viewing will be limited the next few days. Hope to get more next week with the new moon.

Don

[nytecam]

Don quotes..."One question I always had was what causes the amp glow and why don't we see it in the Lodestar? I think the sensors are essentially the same. Does it have something to do with the gain boost in the MC?"

My two cents...I've long understood it's due to the circuitry that boosts the video camera signal, is ON throughout the whole duration of the exposure so amp-glow is part of video-life.   SX learnt over a decade and a half ago that the amplifier could be OFF during the exposure and it's been so since - hence no amp-glow.  
 

[HiloDon]

The Lodestar-C uses a Sony CCD which uses a CYGM sensor (Cyan, Yellow, Green, Magenta) as opposed to RGB. Both use a bayer arrangement.

What this means is that a Bayer RGB sensor will effectively only be sensitive to Ha on its red pixels, so only 1/3 of the pixels. (in a 4x4 grid there are 1xR, 2xG and 1xB), thus basically a lower resolution.

The CYGM sensor though is sensitive to Ha in the R and Y pixels (in a 4x4 grid there are 1xC, 1xY, 1xG and 1xM), so you get 1/2 the pixels.

Still not quite like mono, but not as bad as RGB based OSC sensors...

Thanks for the explanation, Paul.

Don

[HiloDon]

Don quotes..."One question I always had was what causes the amp glow and why don't we see it in the Lodestar? I think the sensors are essentially the same. Does it have something to do with the gain boost in the MC?"

My two cents...I've long understood it's due to the circuitry that boosts the video camera signal, is ON throughout the whole duration of the exposure so amp-glow is part of video-life.   SX learnt over a decade and a half ago that the amplifier could be OFF during the exposure and it's been so since - hence no amp-glow.

Thanks, Nytecam.

[Astrogate]

Hi Don

I emailed your question to Rock Mallin of Mallincam and here is his explanation which will hopefully answer your questions and put a different perspective regarding what and why amp glow shows with video cameras and nor CCD imaging/guide cameras.

Chris

Again , again and again must I tell them the difference between a CCD imager and a VIDEO CCD camera? That’s where some people stop short of explaining. Amp glow is caused by the internal amplifier of the CCD sensor emitting electroluminescence when AGC or sensor gain is increased. Lowering the AGC will lower the amp glow effect. The longer the exposure the more amp glow will show. We can do a amplifier voltage drop BUT sensor sensitivity is greatly reduced and I feel sensitivity must not be sacrificed in a live video camera. If you use a EXview HAD sensor amp glow is also worse due to the extra sensitivity of the sensor into the infrared. Its a simple effect that experienced CCD imager users should know.

In video camera the streaming is continuous so amplifier glow elimination cannot be achieved effectively UNLESS and amp voltage reduction is induced during read out OR a serious drop in amplifier gain where sensitivity will be greatly sacrificed. A CCD camera will only operate for the time and duration of the exposure giving time to shut the amplifier off allowing to reduce or eliminate amp glow during read out BUT refresh of the image will take MUCH longer to show on the screen in order of several seconds up to 30 seconds in some case., That not live!. Video CCD camera does it all instantly with zero lag in image refresh. Its video camera, that's what it supposed to do! Also CCD sensors made by Sony have the onboard amplifier mounted near the pixels array internal to the sensor casing. That alone needs to be re-engineered by Sony so amplifier is away from the upper left area to lower or prevent amp glow to near by pixels on the silicon wafer.

Once again, video CCD will have a certain degree of amp glow where a CCD camera does not BUT a video CCD camera will have up to 70% more sensitivity than a dedicated CCD camera/guider with its very low image refresh or transfer. Actually a CCD camera has a very old technology to do just that. No one has taken the time to reconfigure this slow lag of image refresh and extended time needed to show a captured image. Since CCD camera does not work full time but on an image per image acquisition where a video CCD camera is steady stream non stop to show a true live image with incredible sensitivity and live detail in any deep sky objects. Two different animals here.

Look at the MallinCam Universe. We are the only company in the industry to allow such fast refresh from a dedicated CCD camera with such a huge sensor, less than 1/2 seconds down load for a full frame 1x1 providing a 3012 x 2030 size sensor. That's updated technology compared to much older technology such as the Lodestar and other cameras on the market today. That's what makes a MallinCam so unique and that is why so many are [removed word] off at us by introducing this technology to the world first. They just can't keep up.

A video camera is not the same as a CCD imager/guider. Two different animals.

Rock M.

[HiloDon]

Thanks, Chris for getting this explained. Rock's explanation of amp glow was excellent and I thank him for that. The only thing I have to think about a bit more is Rock's explanation of the image refresh time. I understand that the video cams (I have Samsung scb-2000) continually update the image and the Lodestar with LL updates at the exposure rate. But, if I move the scope to reframe the object, I still have to wait the full exposure/integration time to get the properly exposed image on the monitor, whether it's a video cam or CCD. With video, the old one slowly disappears and the new one appears with increasing brightness. With the lodestar nothing happens until the full exposure time is reached and the new one appears. Also, Rock writes that the sensitivity of the video camera is higher than a dedicated CCD because of the low image refresh or transfer. I'm not sure I understand that. The slow refresh is just a function of the exposure time. Once the exposure is complete, the image is refreshed immediately. I don't see how that affects the sensitivity. Isn't the sensitivity based on the sensor design? Won't the new MC with the Sony icx829 sensor require the same integration times as the Lodestar does exposure? Will the camera really be "more sensitive"? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just naturally inquisitive and EAA is a very intriguing field, and I'm still in the learning stage.

In any case, please thank Rock for taking the time to answer my question.

Don

[Dave In Vermont]

Hi Don,

I think you might wish to email the man himself. MallinCam is rather small operation out of Ottawa, Canada. And Rock is usually to be found there. So check out his website:

http://www.mallincam.net/contact-us.html

You'll find contact information there - and many other things as well.

Thanks again for posting those "stellar" pictures!

Clear Skies,

Dave

[Astrogate]

Hi Don

I forward your response to Rock Mallin and here was his recent response.

Cheers,

Chris

Unfortunately Don misunderstood the explanation. I never said about refresh where sensitivity is affected.

Also A Lodestar will upload a image after several seconds only while the operator's computer holds the last image. Upload is very slow in a USB type camera and clogs the USB channel with too much data at once such as image and camera control limiting USN performance. Some performance will suffer such as very slow upload of the camera and or crashes

In a Video CCD camera, the computer, memories and are internal of the camera thus avoiding ANY clogging of information data through the USB to RS232 channel. That is why we use a separate capture device to assign video streaming of NTSC or PAL to a dedicated port of the computer while the control of the camera is also totally isolated and alone for any other USB port thus increasing efficiency of image transfer and allowing far more image adjustments ever dreamed of direct from the camera.

Nothing beats a live true NTSC or PAL camera for live application. The efficiency of a video camera far exceed anything including a USB alone ccd camera. Video cameras do not need computers since its already built-in the camera. a USB camera is dependent totally on a personal computer which requires many upgrades, updates and will be afected by a personal computer configuration. Not so with a video ccd camera.

On a USB type camera gain is non existent thus low amp glow and very low sensitivity. A video ccd camera will have far more gain and far more sensitivity allowing to push amplifiers to further increase sensitivity and CCD performance. A luxury a USB camera don't have. A USB camera cannot run on its own. It need the cumbersome laptop in the field or at star party and public outreach. A Video CCD camera does NOT require any computer to function. A far more versatile system ever created.

When Don reaches 80+years old, he's not gonna see his computer keyboard anymore or the small laptop monitor. So much for a USB type camera. With a MallinCam videoccd camera or any Video CCD cameras, everything is built in including on screen menu which is displayed large on the monitor screen to perform all inboard adjustments. Again at 80 years old a user will still enjoy the night skies compared to a USB camera which is limited.

Another point. We at MallinCam offer upgrades on just about all our video ccd cameras offering a latest and most reliable ever. A one time investment (purchase) is all what is needed to own a video camera. While a USB camera, if any operating system no longer support the camera, a user is FORCED to purchase and spend more money to buy a another camera. Not the case with Video CCD cameras. Video CCD camera are not old technologies, they are proven technology still in use today and will be for a very long time

Proof? Look at a output of a video ccd camera: NTSC or PAL through a composite signal through a BNC connector. BNC conectors are the highest longest living system ever created. Heck its now standard in SDI cameras worldwide including boradcast TV station cameras!! If its good for them it is certainly good for us. That's right, SDI Serial Digital Interface offering unparallelled performance for pure 100% digital signal. That technology will never die. USB will need to be upgraded and even purchase another camera or another computer eventually. Not so with Video.

Now which one makes more sense? Video of course. It will never die. Don't matter if a  MallinCam Astronomical Video CCD Cameras,  or security type such as Samsung, LN Tech, Stellacam or other security type cameras.  These camera are built to work 100% of the time 24 hours a day. Not so with a USB camera. software error and crash are certainly will occur with a USB camera running that long. That is why medical, Industrial, hospitals and research centers industries do not use consumer grade USB camera. They use VIdeo through BNC output for reliability and durability and exceptional performance.


 

Rock M.