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4" Achro's.. Tal100Rs, Lyra Optics or a new/old pretender in new cloths


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I acquired a 3rd hand 102mm F9.8 Celestron Omni about 6months ago, as a tester really just to its capabilities and to temper my expectations compared to the views through the 8” newt.  You know try something different, for some basic double splitting and solar system viewing.

I’ve been quietly patiently waiting until the right moment to punch the go button on a nice 4” achro for a few months now, after finding the views through the tester scope pleasing, however I always felt quality wise it could have offered and should have offered so much more, nothing specific really just a feeling in my bones.

It’s no dud by any stretch and is easily capably of splitting the double double, resolving stars in M13 in a heavily light polluted garden and showing the colours up in Albireo (by heavily light polluted I mean within 100ft of a gaggle of 6 street lights, round about in the middle of the village, nightmare really!!!)

I appreciate that I am wholly to blame with this as I’ve never had the opportunity to use it under dark sky for favouring the newt and leaving the poor thing behind while I take its larger sibling out to play…

I’ve read enough to know that in the quality 4” achro department sub £450 there are a number of options, but two are discussed over and over again, the Tal 100RS and the Kunming offering available as the lyra 102mm F11.. (also available through TS in Germany) There is a big price difference between the two..

Now then, I was quietly researching again this lazy Sunday morning and I came across something that might just liven up the proceedings, I’ve asked a question just to check, because I think its an familiar friend in new clothing, with a cracking price too… (we’ll I think so….!)

Altair Astro (I believe) are now importing the Kunming 102mm F11 offering, if it’s not it looks very very close on the face of things.

http://www.altairastro.com/product.php?productid=16788

So a few questions..

Firstly, obviously the light grasp will be the same as the 102 F9.8 I already have, but in respect to the optics, should I expect to see a step up in contrast, clarity, sharpness from this scope with it’s longer FL, duel 1:10 focuser and “hand configured optics”

Secondly given the option between the Tal100Rs, the Kunming F11 and the standard synta offerings what choices would you make?

your thoughts are welcome as always..

Ta

Fozzie

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Quick update...

I've just exchanged a couple of emails with Lee @ greenwitch (very helpful) the scope looks to be the Kunming offering with specifics on the focuser and attachment shoes requested for Altair products..

All in all a looks to be a good bundle..

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Looks like Lyra optics and Altair Astro scopes are the same to me.  They're both offering apparently identical 6" f5 scopes too (with AA's one priced just below Lyra's).  For £450 though you can pick up a 2nd hand Skywatcher 100ED.  You might also be able to pick up a Skywatcher evostar 102 very cheaply (a forum member was selling one recently around £70 ish) - but not as nice an object to handle as one of the more expensive achros.  My guess would the biggest difference between the Achros you mention would be how nice they are to touch etc - build quality I mean.

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I love my TAL 100RS - excellent scope for the money, brilliant optics, pretty robust, nice smooth crayford-type focusser, and the finder is certainly acceptable too. Mine came with an excellent 25mm plossl and an indifferent 6.3mm plossl. In terms of cosmetic quality, the paint job isn't great, and the plastic dew shield (although it is effective) could be nicer. It should be a fair bit cheaper than the kunming/Lyra too. I've never used the Kinming/Lyra but I've read very nice things about them, both optically and cosmetically (good optics and well finished).

Lee is a top fellow - pleasure to deal with.

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another update...

Looks like the finder shoe will accept the mini syntax style....  the Crayford focuser has also a steel plate attached to the underside for more stability / better tension...

and it looks good too..

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The 102mm F/11's are available in quite a few different brandings but are all the same scope as I understand it. Reviews I've read put the 102mm F/11's just slightly ahead of the TAL 100's optically and they have a more polished external finish. There is not a great deal difference between them though. They won't be light years ahead of your 102mm Celestron Omni either.

I have to confess though that, if I were in the market for a 4" refractor for up to £400 I'd be scouring the used market for a Skywatcher ED100. I owned one of those after my TAL 100 and it was a really superb scope optically for it's price :smiley:

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I feel i am qualified to comment here, as i own the TAL, i had a 102 evostar (YUK) and have used a Lyra f11.

For a start the TAL100RS is by far the best value for money, if you can get one, these are pure keepers, lots of scopes come and go but few sell the TAL, both the TAL and Lyra are optically near matched, i would go as far as to say if the TAL was f11, it would nudge ahead of the Lyra, very slightly i must add, i found the optics on the little evo 102 (same as the celestron) poorly figured, i also had an evostar 120 f8, not a bad scope but i feel the TAL is better figured.

I really cant fairly comment on the 100ED as i have never looked through one, but i do hear reports of people still getting a little bit of false colour (slight)

I am biased, but i would go for the TAL, second choice would be the 102 f11, hope this helps

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It really is a lovely scope, and an awful lot of money for an Achro!

It is, and for my first "non second hand" purchase it is... but I was basing that around the lyra optics F11 price, this sits bang between the Tal and the Lyra pricewise... think that's what's making it apealling, plus it's a beaut to look at.

 They won't be light years ahead of your 102mm Celestron Omni either.

I have to confess though that, if I were in the market for a 4" refractor for up to £400 I'd be scouring the used market for a Skywatcher ED100. I owned one of those after my TAL 100 and it was a really superb scope optically for it's price :smiley:

Agreed John, hence why I got the Omni to affirm my expectations of a 4" achro, I'm after a bit more sharpness and quality, I guess on the view.. I've considered a 100Ed, its optically better and makes more sense but for some reason the thought of this achro with all it's airs and graces has just bitten me more..

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I am biased, but i would go for the TAL, second choice would be the 102 f11, hope this helps

It appears to be a close run debate this, I gathered that from the numerous other threads on the subject, again though at £435 for the lyra and £250 for a tal brand new it was a BIG stretch to go for a lyra over the TAL, however add this starwave at £365 in to the mix, with some money from sales of my Omni (and a set of old golf clubs I didn't even know I was selling, thanks to the missus) then I am tempted by the Starwave...

Have to say I was looking forward to your response on this.. almost right on the fence! :tongue:

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I agree that the 102mm F/11's do look very elegant scopes and very much the opitome of an astronomical refractor. I've often considered getting one but I already have a stubby but excellent Vixen ED102 F/6.5 and it would be hard to explain to my other half just why I need another 102mm refractor :rolleyes2:

The TAL 100's can be picked up used for very little though and I've a soft spot for those too, having owned a great example of early one (built in 1999).

Too many lovely refractors ..... not enough time !!! :rolleyes2:

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I've had a 100ED, Lyra f11 and a Tal back in the days when I was trying to find the perfect PST mod scope.

Of the 3 I felt the Tal had better optics by a very small margin over the Lyra but that's contrary to most peoples' experience. The Lyra's far better built though, even compared to the Equinox 100s.

I do like the colour correction of an ED scope and I personally didn't notice any false colour in mine (I would expect the Starwave to be more prone, given that it's shorter and uses FPL-51 rather than FPL-53 glass).

All things considered, if I were going back to one of these, I'd probably go for another Lyra f11. I've also got nothing but good things to say about Glen at Lyra Optics- in my opinion he's one of the best dealers in the UK and rare in that he tests each scope before it goes out of the door.

Hope this helps!

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You would also have to factor a finder and a diagonal in to the overall price too

I've got a nice ostara 50mm RACI upgrade on my newt, and the standard skywatcher affair at 50mm spare so I'm ok with that... I've a revelation quartz 1.25mm which will do... Ideally I'd like 2" but I've only got 1 2"EP so I'm in no hurry...

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The value of the ED100 keeps cropping up in many discussions. I am sure that the F11 achro is a lovely scope, but one will also need a diagonal, a finder and....perhaps a scope bag or case if that floats ones boat.

The ED100 is great value for money, as you get all of the above. The package brand new is about £650. Take away the case, diagonal and finder and one could suggest that theoretically the bare OTA is about £400 new. Not much more than the bare F11 Achro. I believe that the diagonal is a di-electric one and the case is something I would definitely like myself for a scope purchase as I tend to 'have a drive' to use my scopes.

It becomes a difficult decision if, like yourself, you have the accessories already. For someone without these accessories, financially and performance wise the ED100 would win out as a package.

An interesting discussion and read, many thanks.

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Hi guys I have just taken order of the altair astro 102mm f 11 and wow!! Had a quick look last night only managed 10 min before clouds kill it, I have owned all of the scopes mentioned above at one time or another , I got this as a light weight scope to put on my eq5 , it's light about 10 lbs in weight but it's big , the build quality is fantastic and I tested the lens on vega last night and collimation is spot on a slight touch of ca when out of focus but cleans up when in focus , and a text book airy disk and what stars I did see in the field was pin sharp , so far it beats the other scopes I've had for a acro I am well impressed.

It's the same as the lyra f 11 and I know Glenn at lyra optics test his scopes and I think altair astro do to , the quality control of these two retailers is spot on , and I think you take a chance with mass produced scopes .

Any way I will post a report when the clouds clear and I get a nights viewing in

John .

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Hi f ozzie just noticed your from north leeds ? If your still undecided we could meet up somewhere and I will bring the scope and you can have a good look at it before you part with any hard earn dosh , I am a member of the west York astronomical society and we meet at rosse observatory every Tues your more then welcome to come . Regards john.

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Dobbie, that is a gracious offer, many thanks.... and your post gives me some hope that my impulse when ordering the scope last night to collect on Friday might not be a dud after all!

I know it won't be, and I'm genuinely looking forward to a good first light...

Not overly familiar with rose observatory or the west leeds club... I'm a lone wolf at the moment, could you DM me the the tails please?

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