DSLR and mount only for astrophotography

[bendiddley]

Hi all. I've been into astronomy for a couple of years, enjoying many an evening with my 200p dobsonian. Just lately I have been starting to get interested in astrophotography. Having done a little research and seeing how much money is involved and what little I have I am a bit put off, however I realised this evening that I could afford a second hand mount (possibly an HEQ5 pro which would be max in my budget) and a second hand DSLR camera (not sure yet what sort) if I sell my current dob set-up and with some extra savings. I've done a bit of reading on SL and i understand this set-up is do-able, but what sort of stuff could I take photos of with it, what's possible? Am I going to get bored after a couple of evenings? Has anyone tried this set-up or know about it to tell me more?

[RichM63]

Am I going to get bored after a couple of evenings?

How can you ever get bored attacking a challenge that everyone says you can't do?

Shortly I will be venturing into the realms of the impossible when my DSLR arrives.

I already know that it may be rather difficult for me to get a 'Hubble' image, but the point is, I will try to the best of my ability and kit and eventually know that I did my best.

The best thing IMHO is to get stuck in.

Get the camera and go from there at this point.

[Leveye]

Keep in mind that a Dob is only called that because of the mount. It's still a Newt under there. You could remove the scope from the Dob base and put a dovetail or losmandy bar on that and then onto a tracking mount.

[ronin]

What is the future intention concerning astrophotography?

If you expect to put an imaging scope, guide scope and assorted other items on board then the HEQ5 is very likely the best option.

If however you expect to kept the DSLR only then you will be OK with an EQ5.

If you intend to add a simple single imaging scope and keep the DSLR then again you should be OK with the EQ5. By simple I mean 130PDS or possibly up to an ED80 although an ED 80 is likely as big as makes sense.

So what are the aspirations and intended or expected equipment?

I ask this as the HEQ5 is a fairly hefty beastie, and nothing will stop you imaging like a mount that is just too big to get out and use easily.

[Tommohawk]

Keep in mind that a Dob is only called that because of the mount. It's still a Newt under there. You could remove the scope from the Dob base and put a dovetail or losmandy bar on that and then onto a tracking mount.

Yep beat me to it. Couple of rings and dovetail and you're there. Bit longer than a typical imaging scope though, so guiding will need to be spot on. And lifting my 200p F5 is a bit of fun so you'll need to e careful getting that scope on the mount. I have HEQ5 pro - bit of a lump, especially with both weights - which you will deffo need - butt doable.

Astromodded DSLRs available from Juan at Cheapastrophotography at very good prices - he converted my Canon and gets good reviews.

Steep and never ending learning curve! You'll need some more kit for decent images - guidescope etc - and software to drive it like PHD. Free, but another good chunk of time to master.

And DeepSkyStacker or similar for stacking images + some kind of basic processing software. Plus multiple images takes lots of time of course - can be frustrating with relatively few clear nights.

You should be able to image most of the DSOs you'll know of. Certainly if you can see it with an EP, you can image it - the extra length compared to a typical imaging scope will help with planets which need more mag. And if you get a camera with video then youre set to image planets too.

Sorry thats all very brief but hopefully helps.

PS the thing you need more than anything else is.... patience!

[happy-kat]

I am currently collecting all the bits to build a barn door tracker (will still be under £25) to use with my 1100d to have a dabble and see if it floats my interest. This I will stick on top of my AZ3.

[bendiddley]

Thanks for your comments so far.  In answer to ronin, my intention is to save up for buying more advanced kit at a later date, getting a big mount was an investment for the future and using a DSLR to feed my cravings for now, however I am not sure when I will be able to afford more kit, but hopefully I will. It is interesting to hear that I could get away with an EQ5 if I just use a DSLR, that would help with the money at this stage. I did think about mounting my 200p on an EQ mount but I wouldn't have enough money to buy a camera if I did, so the thought was sell the dob and ep's, buy the EQ mount and use my other savings to buy the camera. And then hopefully if I get the AP bug I'll keep saving to buy more kit. That was my thinking. What I still want to know though, is what can I image using just a DSLR and the mount?

[happy-kat]

This guy is great it gave me ideas of what might try at a later date.

Right now my intention is to learn wide field imaging with a static mount and the DSLR.

[MartinB]

Are you planning not to bother with a scope at the moment but use a camera lens and do fairly wide field imaging.  That is a great way to start.

[Astrosurf]

I would say that if you're thinking of moving forward with AP, then the HEQ5 Pro is a great way to start. You'll need a good lens for your camera. Well, lenses! Some great work is done with a good 200mm lens but that will set you back too. And also a nice wide-angle lens for widefield shots. I've heard that zoom lenses don't have quite as good quality but that might be wrong, but at least you'll have a choice then. The mount will also be sturdy enough to hold up to an 8" Newt if you intend to image small DSOs in the future. Do have your camera modded as most of the nebulae are emission types.

To get long-exposure shots you will need to guide with the set-up. I think you would need to use a side-by-side bar: one side to attach your camera (preferably with a ball-head joint, such as a Manfrotto) and the other side to mount your guiding set-up. Ask on here the best way to do it.

http://astronomia.co.uk/index.php/accessories/mount-accessories/mount-hardware/altair-starwave/alt-sw-dual-vbar-230mm.html

But then there's also this, if you want to try an EQ5, but it's not as sturdy as the HEQ5:

http://astrocasto.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/how-to-set-up-guiding-system-for-your.html

Get also this book. It's the imagers' bible!

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

I hope I haven't given duff gen! Correct me if I'm wrong, people.

Good luck!

Alexxx

[Tommohawk]

Thanks for your comments so far.  In answer to ronin, my intention is to save up for buying more advanced kit at a later date, getting a big mount was an investment for the future and using a DSLR to feed my cravings for now, however I am not sure when I will be able to afford more kit, but hopefully I will. It is interesting to hear that I could get away with an EQ5 if I just use a DSLR, that would help with the money at this stage. I did think about mounting my 200p on an EQ mount but I wouldn't have enough money to buy a camera if I did, so the thought was sell the dob and ep's, buy the EQ mount and use my other savings to buy the camera. And then hopefully if I get the AP bug I'll keep saving to buy more kit. That was my thinking. What I still want to know though, is what can I image using just a DSLR and the mount?

OK I see where youre at. I started with camera only and just tripod but pretty soon moved over to scope; heres my thoughts FWIW.

A DSLR with kit lens eg 50mm will get you nice wide field star scapes, and of course trails with long exposure. But I dont think you'll have enough mag for DSOs etc and certainly not for planets. Lunar would be OK, but ideally needs a longer lens. I think you might find this a bit limiting, esp if you've flogged the dobbie to do it!

Maybe Andromeda would work OK with DSLR + shorter lens cos its so huge but most DSOs you would really need a longer (and ideally fast) lens. Of course by the time you have a long lens you will need to drive the mount. Also long fast lenses are very expensive. 

For economy you might consider a bridge camera. My HSX30EXR bridge camera (currently £199 on Amazon) has a 720mm equivalent focal length, so gets you similar to 750mm scope, but of course is slower so needs longer exposure times. And longer exposure times definitiely needs drive and or guided mount. From memory I used to get 10 second subs with 720mm camera only without drive before noticeable blurring, and you would need much longer subs than that for DSOs.

I got 90 second subs with the 750mm scope with EQ3-2 + motor drive but without guiding. That said, I had to chuck about half the subs due to blurring.

Also if you have Stellarium you can set the sensor/camera type and see exactly what will be seen in the viewfinder - its excellent for planning shots and thinking through your lens options.

It is difficult to know where to start, and whilst there is something to be said for keeping it simple, you dont want to be forever upgrading. Theres lots of help here of course- good luck!

[wuthton]

I used an EQ5 pro with a 80mm refractor and a piggybacked ST80 guidescope for years.

If you are buying second hand an EQ5 can be picked up for half the price of a HEQ5 and there's nothing wrong with one for light weight setup.

[peroni]

Thanks for your comments so far.  In answer to ronin, my intention is to save up for buying more advanced kit at a later date, getting a big mount was an investment for the future and using a DSLR to feed my cravings for now, however I am not sure when I will be able to afford more kit, but hopefully I will. It is interesting to hear that I could get away with an EQ5 if I just use a DSLR, that would help with the money at this stage. I did think about mounting my 200p on an EQ mount but I wouldn't have enough money to buy a camera if I did, so the thought was sell the dob and ep's, buy the EQ mount and use my other savings to buy the camera. And then hopefully if I get the AP bug I'll keep saving to buy more kit. That was my thinking. What I still want to know though, is what can I image using just a DSLR and the mount?

Kit purchases are tricky things to balance...

You want the next upgrade to allow you to progress but once you have the upgrade you realise you need something else...

And so on...

The book is a must. The best £20 you'll ever spend.

Next the kit list in order would be this...

DSLR - entry level Canon

You can pick up cheap 1000d, 1100d second hand

Canon is the best make for Astro as many people use them and there is a lot of free/cheap software out there.

DLSR lens

The kit lens 18mm-55mm is great

The 'nifty fifty' 50mm f/1.8 can be grabbed for around £50 - this is a cheap fast lens

Fixed camera tripod - £20 ish

basic, gets you taking photos of various targets with exposure at 18mm up to 30 secs without trailling

Above kit could keep you interested with targets for while but you'll soon hunger for DSO's

So what scope and mount do you get? Do you buy early and save for an upgrade? Or do you wait a bit longer and buy big once?

I went down the HEQ5 route after taking the advice from others on this forum. no regrets.

The HEQ5 is luggable in pieces outside for imaging. It takes about 4 trips to get scope, mount, weights, and power all outside for session.

Cheapest HEQ5 to get is the syntrek version (£630) - no goto - I got the goto which i found useful but short-lived as I soon moved onto hooking up the laptop

Alternative EQ5 goto (£499)

Alternative EQ5 deluxe (£238)

How big is your budget?

A what point will you have more savings to spend on kit?

It would be a shame to spend £499 on mount only to find in 6 months time you have enough to get the HEQ5.

I'd say keep the scope, buy a DSLR and fixed tripod for £20, minimising your initial spend.

Have a read of the book and then decide you where to go.

For limited funds the 2nd market is a good place. The classified here and Astrobuyandsell

[laser_jock99]

You can get reasonable results with just a camera on an EQ mount. Invest in a good mount to begin with and you'll be able to bung on a telescope at a later date.

A second hand NEQ5 should be £400-500 and will ample for all but heaviest gear and with short focal length lenses (and good polar alignment) should require no guiding.

For widefield astrophotography with camera lenses dark sky sites are much better- so mount portability might be an issue. There is the ASTROTRAC but it is fairly specialized kit and not good mounting a scope on. The EQ5 is also a much more portable item than it's heavy weight brother the EQ6.

Here's the sort of thing you can achieve with standard camera lenses with an unguided EQ5 mount in a dark sky site.

Cephius 9 x 600 seconds Nikon 135mm Lens

[kalasinman]

As Leveye said, keep the reflector you have. An Ioptron ZEQ25GT has been proven to track 30# . around 650BP, a used Canon 60d body only around 200 BP. So that would be a great start. If you want to do some wide field, a focal reducer or piggy back with a used prime focus 50mm or wider won't set you back much.

You'd be getting GOTO and GPS, with belt drive. Most imagers say the mount is the prime consideration, and this one will get you into 5+ minute subs with no guiding. Mount weighs 10#.

[ronin]

My concern of the HEQ5 is simply one of size.

I am not slight of build and I bought an HEQ5, by the time I loaded it in the car drove back then unloaded it I was having doubts, and that was with it as tripod, mount and weights seperately.

When in use the tripod and head are one unit.

When someone had an EQ5 for sale I grabbed it.

It is a much better size for general use.

I suppose that it comes down to a case of "Oh god, I don't have to drag that flaming great mount out again."

The HEQ5 is more solid and is more stable, but it is not used anywhere near as much as the EQ5.

The HEQ5 is not a mount to just throw in the car and go out for an hour or so's DSLR imaging, the EQ5 is.

That was the reason for asking about future upgrades - if the intention is say a £5000-8000 imaging rig (easy)  then the HEQ5 will be best, if the idea is to get an 70/80mm refractor and attach an DSLR and get exposure of up to 120 seconds, then the EQ5 will manage it.

As you are in Reading will say to consider a trip to Sidmouth for the SWAF and talk and look at the imaging people there and what they use. When I was last there many used relatively small and inexpensive setups. The EQ5, Megrez-72 and DSLR being a "common" set up at that time. I found it nice to see setups that many will start at instead of someones ultimate £15,000 rig.

Likely too late to consider now but I wonder if SWAF organisers would consider 3 tents - one for imaging and imagers, one for the "normal" astro observing rigs and another for Solar observing. Would mean it would enable people to visit and get an insight into each aspect.

[peroni]

My concern of the HEQ5 is simply one of size.

I am not slight of build and I bought an HEQ5, by the time I loaded it in the car drove back then unloaded it I was having doubts, and that was with it as tripod, mount and weights seperately.

When in use the tripod and head are one unit.

When someone had an EQ5 for sale I grabbed it.

It is a much better size for general use.

I suppose that it comes down to a case of "Oh god, I don't have to drag that flaming great mount out again."

The HEQ5 is more solid and is more stable, but it is not used anywhere near as much as the EQ5.

The HEQ5 is not a mount to just throw in the car and go out for an hour or so's DSLR imaging, the EQ5 is.

Totally agree. You need to carefully consider how portable you need your kit to be.

HEQ5 is ok for carrying downstairs and outside to garden but it is heavy and not something that would be easy to bend over and load into and out of car.

This comes down to preference and ability to carry load. Something you have to try out for yourself. I think HEQ5 weight wise is ...

mount is 10kg

tripod is 5kg

counter weights are 5kg each

[Alien 13]

My concern of the HEQ5 is simply one of size.

I am not slight of build and I bought an HEQ5, by the time I loaded it in the car drove back then unloaded it I was having doubts, and that was with it as tripod, mount and weights seperately.

When in use the tripod and head are one unit.

When someone had an EQ5 for sale I grabbed it.

It is a much better size for general use.

I suppose that it comes down to a case of "Oh god, I don't have to drag that flaming great mount out again."

The HEQ5 is more solid and is more stable, but it is not used anywhere near as much as the EQ5.

The HEQ5 is not a mount to just throw in the car and go out for an hour or so's DSLR imaging, the EQ5 is.

That was the reason for asking about future upgrades - if the intention is say a £5000-8000 imaging rig (easy)  then the HEQ5 will be best, if the idea is to get an 70/80mm refractor and attach an DSLR and get exposure of up to 120 seconds, then the EQ5 will manage it.

As you are in Reading will say to consider a trip to Sidmouth for the SWAF and talk and look at the imaging people there and what they use. When I was last there many used relatively small and inexpensive setups. The EQ5, Megrez-72 and DSLR being a "common" set up at that time. I found it nice to see setups that many will start at instead of someones ultimate £15,000 rig.

Likely too late to consider now but I wonder if SWAF organisers would consider 3 tents - one for imaging and imagers, one for the "normal" astro observing rigs and another for Solar observing. Would mean it would enable people to visit and get an insight into each aspect.

I agree with these comments i have never considered an HEQ5 as an upgrade from an EQ5 or 3 just it being more capable at longer focal lengths and greater loads but at the expense of it being more cumbersome.

A lighter mount can be fine for widefield camera/lens imaging and can often be up and running in a few minutes.

Alan

[Tommohawk]

I routinely lug the HEQ5 out and TBH I dont find it that much of a problem - that said I wouldnt want to take it up/down stairs and dont take it anywhere else and agree this could be a bit much. You'd only need one weight so wouldnt be too gross and also you'd be future proofed if you want to upgrade later.

Looks like I'm in the minority though!

[bendiddley]

Thanks everyone for your very helpful responses and comments. happy-kat that was a great video and very useful to see the processes of stacking images and what is doable with a DSLR.  Astrosurf very useful links for the cheap set-up, food for thought, so do you think the 200p on an EQ5 will be OK, I've heard people saying that an HEQ5 is needed as the 200p is too heavy? peroni thanks for the camera advise and price guides will be very useful and also for the thoughts about weight issues on the HEQ5. As to be expected the people of SL have done me good again. I expect to come back with lots more posts as more questions come into my head so be warned 

[ollypenrice]

I'm another who would consider the HEQ5 a portable AP mount and, for anything up to a 4 inch refractor, it is just as good as the NEQ6 in my view. If you want to progress in AP then the HEQ5 is a way, way better bet than the EQ5.

Imaging widefield to start with is a great idea and most of the imaging skills can be honed at this stage. The basic 'nifty fifty' lens is a cracker and longer FL lenses will come up second hand, I'm sure.

Olly

[Knight of Clear Skies]

I got myself a second hand EQ3-2 with RA motor for £120 as a budget tracking camera mount. I haven't tried it with a long lens yet, but it should be up to the job.

[bendiddley]

Another question. I've noticed that many DSLR's are modded for AP but can you also use a standard one? Ideally I would like a camera that can be used for both day time and night time use if there is such a thing?

[laser_jock99]

Standard cameras are good for many objects. Modification is really only needed for boosting sensitivity at the red end of the spectrum (i.e. for Hydrogen Alpha emission nebulae).

Even an unmodified camera will still pick up the brightest red nebulosity

(Cygnus 80mm lens 300 seconds @ ISO1600 F4, Fujifilm DSLR unmodified)

[Scott]

My personal opinion which is 100% right for me and quite possibly 100% wrong for others is don't buy an eq5. If you only mount a camera then it'll be way over mounted. If you intend to use a scope you WILL need to guide. there have been many many threads saying so and so has got great results from an eq5. what they don't tell you is the shear frustration  you will go through throwing away many subs because a frog burped and the resulting wind upset the balance of your scope. These are not stories i've heard, I did it. Oh and by the way, most of those people who got great results have moved up the mount ladder. If you only want to use a camer there's the eq3, astrotrac, polarie and skywatcher are the new kid on the block with this

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-star-adventurer/skywatcher-star-adventurer-astronomy-bundle.html

although I've not seen this last one.