Observing the planets from out of town?

[Mike73]

Does anyone here go out of town to observe the planets with the aim of getting better seeing?

My local dark site for observing DSO's is on a cliff top which faces SW, its only a 15 minutes drive from home but for DSO's is makes a huge difference getting away from LP so I'm wondering how much difference I'd see out there in the air stability?

I've never even looked at Juipter from a dark site before, I wouldn't want it ruining my dark adaption at the start of the night and at the end of the night I've always been tired and just packed up to come home. I guess I can easily answer my own question by trying it but until the next time that I get a chance I'd like to hear what others think about it? Would you drive out of town to get better views of Jupiter??

Thanks.

[nightfisher]

I go to my dark site for planets and Luna but astro work from my house is next to useless 

[Stu]

I haven't done, always observed from home but I do think it would be worth it to get away from the turbulence coming off neighbouring houses. I get very small windows of clean air in between the houses but most of the time I'm looking through heat haze of some sort.

Give it a go I guess, like you say :-)

Stu

[RT65CB-SWL]

During August 1999 I was in Varna, BG which is on the north east coast of the Black Sea for the solar eclipse. My hotel room was about 200metres from the sea, so obviously not a lot of light pollution. I found that the viewing was better. I would often spend a sleepless night looking at Jupiter and Saturn through my TeleVue Ranger from the balcony of my hotel room.

I have have an old brass e/p mounted in a 1.25inch aluminium adapter made by Beacon Hill Telescopes and I could see the Cassini division in Saturn's rings, but from home in GB not a chance with it. OK the e/p in question is not upto todays specification(s), but it cerainly nice and entertaining using a 'piece of old' with a 'piece of new'.

[Qualia]

Would you drive out of town to get better views of Jupiter??

No. Why? Because I'm not convinced you would witness better views.

I try to view Jupiter whenever possible and I have found there isn't any advantage in taking the 10" out to a dark site to observe Jupiter than there is viewing from the roof top in the city. This season alone, from September to last night (will view again this evening), I have viewied Jupiter about 35 times (about 4 times a week) in the city and 5 times from a dark site (every other week) and have found no difference in what I observe; It makes no difference whether I'm viewing from the city or a relatively non-light polluted sky.

However, what does make a big difference to viewing Jupiter are stable seeing conditions and I have found that this 'seeing condition' is a rather ellusive term. Either that or I haven't termed it correctly.

There is, for example, both in the city and out at a dark site, a kind of high altitude turbulence that can give the image a boiling effect. Another night I will be viewing a really solid and steady image of Jupiter but for some reason its features just seem a little soft, not nearly so pronounced as the night before. Another night, both in the city and at the dark site, there may be noted a strong glare, a scattering of light around the planet that makes viewing a tad tricky. Then another night, like last night, for example, there are patches of very light mist over the late night/early morning sky and the image of Jupiter is spectacular in the superlative, 250x and wishing I had an eyepiece of 300x or more. You'll even find that over a given evening, some of those more annoying seeing conditions will suddenly disappear and the image of Jupiter becomes super steady and sharp only to fall back down again a few moments or minutes later waiting to return again to super sharpness.

To add even more madness to the cocktail, I'm sometimes awake just as the glimpse of dawn is becoming obvious - both at the dark site and in the city - and for a very brief time the viewing of Jupiter is as good as it was during the night sky! I cannot imagine a bigger light 'pollutant' than the Sun, but there it is - the image of Jupiter remains as good. Another thing I've noticed is that it isn't useful to have my viewing eye dark adapted (eye-patched and hooded until at the eyepiece etc). It seems to work better for me that my Jupiter eye is not dark adapted and I have found the same when viewing the Moon. In this case, every now and then I shine a white light torch and look at its reflection for a few moments and then go back to viewing Jupiter.

These are certainly great puzzles from which I am learning from every night of planetary viewing (I guess I get the same buzz as you do from seeing galaxies) but from hundreds of hours of viewing Jupiter, I can tentatively conclude that in my own case I do not want dark adaption for the eyes when viewing planets and light pollution in the form of sky glow makes no difference to me but that seeing is the all too important factor.

Hope this is of interest and adds room for debate.

- - - - - - -

P.S: It is from these observations that rather than beat up on LP and drive myself crazy I have now comfortably split my astro-sessions into two lovely apartments. City viewing is for the planets, the Moon, double stars and clusters which really don't seem to be that affected and dark sites are for nebulae and galaxies.

[jetstream]

Qualia,you hit the nail on the head....again.Excellent.

[Stu]

Totally agree that the issue is seeing/atmospheric turbulence rather than LP. I had some fabulous viewed the other morning when it was nearly daylight but the atmosphere was very stable so the detail was very clear.

There are two different issues in terms of seeing, the high level turbulence and transparency which is unaffected by whether you are in a town or not. The reason I think it worthwhile moving location is to get away from houses in the direct path of you observing when flues from central heating and heat loss from rooftops causing quite severe boiling in the view. This may be more if an issue in the UK due to colder outside temperatures so more convection currents from the houses. As you say Qualia, it doesn't necessarily merit a long trip away from LP, but at least being able to observe over fields rather than directly over houses would remove this issue. Not do much of an issue when Jupiter is high up, but certainly is when it is lower in the sky.

Stu

[Mike73]

Its that atmospheric turbulence that Stu talks about thats the key specially when at least at the moment all I have is a large aperture scope which easily gets effected by poor seeing conditions.

Next time the moon is up I will go out of town and just see for myself how the views from the 16" compare to the views at home, I really miss my little 4" Lyra for solar system objects though!

[Stu]

Its that atmospheric turbulence that Stu talks about thats the key specially when at least at the moment all I have is a large aperture scope which easily gets effected by poor seeing conditions.

Next time the moon is up I will go out of town and just see for myself how the views from the 16" compare to the views at home, I really miss my little 4" Lyra for solar system objects though!

I agree with you on the last point Mike. My 4" apo is lovely on planets and is far less affected by seeing than larger scopes. A little more aperture would be nice but not too much, maybe a 4.5 or 5" :-).

Stu

[Mike73]

I agree with you on the last point Mike. My 4" apo is lovely on planets and is far less affected by seeing than larger scopes. A little more aperture would be nice but not too much, maybe a 4.5 or 5" :-).

Stu

My Lyra just felt like a 'real' telescope, there was just something about using it which was enjoyable in itself!

I'm saving for another scope on a EQ just for the planets and lunar sketching, slightly more aperture than the Lyra though, probably a small Mak or SCT.

[jetstream]

Totally agree that the issue is seeing/atmospheric turbulence rather than LP. I had some fabulous viewed the other morning when it was nearly daylight but the atmosphere was very stable so the detail was very clear.

There are two different issues in terms of seeing, the high level turbulence and transparency which is unaffected by whether you are in a town or not. The reason I think it worthwhile moving location is to get away from houses in the direct path of you observing when flues from central heating and heat loss from rooftops causing quite severe boiling in the view. This may be more if an issue in the UK due to colder outside temperatures so more convection currents from the houses. As you say Qualia, it doesn't necessarily merit a long trip away from LP, but at least being able to observe over fields rather than directly over houses would remove this issue. Not do much of an issue when Jupiter is high up, but certainly is when it is lower in the sky.

Stu

Stu,the house convections you speak of can wreck my viewing of the planets as you say.I even had problems from my deck with the door open a bit allowing warmer air to escape rising past & through my scope.The difference was huge when I  closed the door & I also cannot get a good planet view observing over the roof top.Great point Stu

[Qualia]

I guess it's the local conditions we must more often bow to. In the city, I observe from a roof top but always after midnight and generally the seeing is quite good (as evidenced in the sketches). I've never had a problem and too date the worst night I've had so far viewing Jupiter was out in the middle of the scrub/desert lands miles away from anywhere   

[jetstream]

Those thermal currents can come from surprising places,commonly buildings-but I have also seen them from fields in the summer or when near swamps....anything that holds the heat as the temp drops.I pesonally have settled on "gravel pits" or quarries for my best viewing potential as they seem to equalize the fastest here.Absolutely right about the local conditions Qualia,I guess it just takes a bit of time & work to figure out what works for each of us....and now I`ll be checking things with an SQM-L for reference on skies as well.

[stevend]

I think the time of day matters more than a dark site for planets. Having recently started pre-dawn observations I am amazed at how much better the views are of everything at that time of day. With planets I would use remote sites to get access to parts of the sky I cannot see from my back garden, eg I cannot see low in the East so I may venture out on the morning of the Sat 23rd Nov to get views of Mercury, Saturn, ISON and Encke if the weather permits.

[Stu]

I think the time of day matters more than a dark site for planets. Having recently started pre-dawn observations I am amazed at how much better the views are of everything at that time of day. With planets I would use remote sites to get access to parts of the sky I cannot see from my back garden, eg I cannot see low in the East so I may venture out on the morning of the Sat 23rd Nov to get views of Mercury, Saturn, ISON and Encke if the weather permits.

Completely agree with that after my recent experience observing Jupiter in the twilight just before dawn. Everything seems much more stable

Stu

[rjc404]

I'm just a beginner here but could some of the good pre-dawn seeing conditions described above also be because Jupiter is currently higher in the sky at that point? I really need to force myself to wake up early before work one day to check this out.

[stevend]

I'm just a beginner here but could some of the good pre-dawn seeing conditions described above also be because Jupiter is currently higher in the sky at that point? I really need to force myself to wake up early before work one day to check this out.

Well higher is better, but I found other targets clearer as well. Be aware that time is short, it is amazing how quickly either daylight or the time when you need to pack up comes along, so be prepared.

[Stu]

I'm just a beginner here but could some of the good pre-dawn seeing conditions described above also be because Jupiter is currently higher in the sky at that point? I really need to force myself to wake up early before work one day to check this out.

That is part of it, agreed, but even compared with previous years when it was at similar altitude earlier in the evening (as it will be over the coming months), it appears steadier in the morning still as the atmosphere has calmed overnight. The heat has gone from the land and so there are far fewer convection currents around.

Stu

[Qualia]

It's a fascinating subject and it might be a nice idea to keep a little journal/sketch of our experiences and share them. Where we were viewing from, general seeing conditions, mags and gear used, whether we preferred wide field or narrow etc. Although it is quite a personal thing, we might be able to discern a pattern for optimum viewing experience. This year might be a interesting to try this for judging by other folks' reports and the bit I've already seen, Jupiter's features appear a little more pronounced than other years. 

Anyway, there's a few sites I find useful; it's not exhaustive but it might help:

Jupiter 2. Haven't had a problem with the program and I find it really quite useful.

Jupiter's Moons. The classic program similar to Jupiter 2.

Guide. Succinct guide.

Observing Guide. Similar to above and another useful guide.

Cal Sky. Very nice source. Click about but for a quick view of Jupiter's moons etc click on 'Table of Contents', find Jupiter and click on 'Apparent View'.

For weather I use Meteoblue.com. If you look for 'graphs and tool' at the top of the page, you'll find the category 'Astronomy Seeing' and here you'll find an hour by hour assessment of your area. It's not 100% accurate but I've found the site and its tools the best indication of weather around my area, better than any other weather site I've used.

Hope this helps a little.

[Stu]

Thank Qualia, will have a look through those.

I bet the planetary imaging guys and girls know a lot about the things that affect seeing conditions. It has a dramatic impact on the level of detail they can achieve.

Stu

[Stu]

I mean Thanks, of course. Can't edit for some reason...

[wayneh]

Have to say i'm only new to this but have seen jupiter twice now, once around 12ish and again today at 4.30 and the 4.30 one looked a lot better, i only view from my yard as i dont drive and i live right on the docks of hartlepool, only one street of so the LP is big for me, just some thing you have to settle for in this hobby..

[voeole]

Jupiter at the moment is first and only planet i saw in my scope. When i saw him, i understand that buy telescope not for nothing ! Awesome feelings.

Cant wait for clear sky in my town >_<

[voeole]

sorry,wrong topic

[Stargazer 2013]

I am having a bit of trouble finding Jupiter,can someone point it out to me? My sky dish is point more or less east so I believe it's to my left towards North?