Best Mount for Imaging (£5k-£6k Budget)

[ribuck]

Hi All,

I'm moving house later this year, and it seem's a good time to start thing about a new mount, to go with new house.......

I'm planning to use the mount for Astro Imaging with my 4" refractor and 8" newt for planetary work. and will be permanently mounted in an obs.

My budget will be around the £5000 / £6000 mark so i'm keen to get feedback from the forum on what people think is the best mount available for my budget.

I'm looking for amount that will just reliably work, well built and with will do unguided tracking........

So far i'm contemplating the 10micron HPS 1000, but i can't find any decent reviews of it. My other choice so far is the ASA DDM 60

Rich.

[perfrej]

Rich,

Both mounts are good choices. Another one is the Mesu mount. As you can see in my signature, I have made my choice

The Mesu goes off the list if you want to do unguided and need to go robotic/remote. To differentiate between the other two is more difficult. ASA, in my view, falls short because of an unprecedented computer dependancy. It just won't do unguided without a fully functional Windows PC because the whole pointing and tracking precision is produced from a model in a Windows program called "Autoslew". The motor technology, though, is cool and modern.

10Micron GM1000HPS is derived from its bigger brother, the GM2000HPS. Now, mechanically that is one of the most beautiful products I have ever seen. It does have traditional motors and a worm gear, but one of the usual gears has been replaced by a good belt solution, thus eliminating a lot of the usual gear disadvantages. The mount firmware (which is based on the same code in the 1000, 2000 and 4000 models) is a fantastic solution. It contains the pointing and tracking model as well as a very good polar alignment routine. Both are key to getting up to speed quickly.

So, how good are the 10Micron mounts? In my view thay are fantastic!

Unguided

With my 2000 I get 30 minute unguided subs at a meter and a half of focal length.I get that with a model that doesn't even cover the whole sky as I have a 45° mask straight south. I say 30 minutes because I haven't tried longer...

Precision

Gotos with the 10Micron is usually within a few arc-seconds. If I let go of the clutches and move the thing about it always knows where it is. The same goes for taking the scope down to change soething; put it back on and continue - no re-alignment, no model updating. As the mount handles atmospheric refraction in firmware, you should consult your barometer and thermometer before building models and at the beginning of each session (my driver supplies the parameters upon connect). I have totally stopped verifying my field of view when imaging. I get the coordinates of my ready-framed desired result from Stellarium, enter them in my imaging software (CCD Autopilot or ACP), take the hood off the scope (I don't have a real observatory yet) and go to sleep. It has never missed. I have done imaging from the calcony while on trips. My wife takes the hood off during the afternoon or even in the morning and the thing just does the job. The only throw-away subs I get are from less than perfectly clear skies - none from tracking errors. I have imaged in 11 m/s winds (25 mph) with the FSQ106 and lost no subs.

Polar alignment

Set it up and point it where you think North is, then set the altitude on a hunch (there are no scales). Perform a three star alignment and consult the hand controller (physical or virtual on your PC screen). It will tell you how many turns to do on which knobs and how much off you are. Now, here comes the fun part... If you are off, just build a model with a few more stars, set to tracking in both axis and start imaging. The mount will compensate by means of the calculated model. If you want to tweak your polar alignment, just turn the knobs and do a new three star. When you are reanobaly close, refine the model with a few more points and check (or start imaging).

I use a software that I wrote specifically for the 10Micron mounts in order to simplyfy the modeling process. It does 25 stars in about ten minutes.

Polar alignment also reports your cone error, which is good. None of the polar alignment stuff requires a PC unless you opt for a model buyilding software such as mine (I guess that's the only one out there ).

Balance

The firmware contains a simple to use balancing procedure that you use to balance your scope. It gets you very well balanced, something that is important when you start to add scope weight and tons of equipment.

Software

The drivers delivered by 10Micron are not that good. Initially, they used the "good old" LX200 ASCOM driver which unfortunately is dysfuntional. I wrote my own which I gave to Baader-Planetarium (it works very well). I have also supplied Ian King with a distribution copy of it, so should you go the 10Micron way you will get it from him. There is no TheSkyX driver but you can use the TeleAPI driver that, in its turn, connects via ASCOM.

I use my GM2000HPS with MaximDL, FocusMax, Cartes du Ciel, CCD Autopilot and ACP. No issues. StellariumScope also works, but is in its own right quite unstable regardless of mount.

Support

10Micron are fairly quiet. In fact, I find them a bit too quiet. Luckily, Baader-Planetarium is there and handles the support role. In fact, they are a bit responsible for the encoder technology used in the 10Micron mounts and cooperate intensively with the manufacturer. I'm sure you've had dealings with Ian King and know that he is a trustworthy guy in terms of support, and he has Baader as his source. And don't forget the community and guys and gals like ourselves

One more thing... When you're working with mounts of this calibre, you really need a GPS unit connected to it. A mount clock that is one second off will, as I'm sure you know, put your slews off by 15 arc seconds,

Relevance

My experience so far is the 2000 model and my 1000 is slated for no later than last week of January. I have a friend who also has a 2000HPS as well and he has looked at the 1000. Given that the quality and the software is the same and the mechanics just down-sized from the 2000, I am totally confident that I have not gotten myself a lemon with the GM1000HPS.

Oh, you'll have so much fun with a mount of this calibre!

All the best,

Per

Here's a screen dump from my driver:

[ribuck]

Hi Per,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed report on your GM2000HPS setup, it was much appreciated and i will most definitely keeping an eye on the forum for your feedback on the GM1000HPS when it arrives. I have to say I do really like the look of the 10Micron gear, in particular there are 3 features i really like the sound of :- (The Balance Routine as i've not seen this in any other mount in the same price bracket, the polar alignment routine also sound very good, but for me the one feature that really stands out is the atmospheric refraction).

I've thought about DDM 60, as the direct drives are quite appealing, but i'm not so sure about having to use AutoSlew. I know it's been improved recently, but i watched a youtube video of someone doing an alignment routine and it just seemed a like a faff, i.e. no better than what i currently have with my Heq5 Pro / Eqmod in terms of user input required.

I'll take a look at the Mesu mounts that you mentioned, but i'm sure i read somewhere that their technology isn't quite as refined, in that it has been adapted from other system instead of being designed specifically for the purpose like ASA & 10Micron.

Thanks,

Rich.

[pete_l]

Rich, the other friction driven mount is the Gemini G53F (£5800) - though you'll have to do a bit of work to get user feedback about it.

The other possibility is to hold on for a while and see what the "mythological" EQ8 has to offer, if / when it appears this year.

[Ajohn]

If I was spending that amount of money I would be looking for something where the tracking error was specified. The only people who do this that I am aware of is Astrophysics. Prices may be too high for you though when they are in GBP.

You are on the right lines looking at mounts that use encoders rather than steppers. Typical steppers have a 5% error in the step size and in real terms the only way of curing that is PEC. With that you have to train the drive on a star yourself. These usually allow a section of sky to be done at a time, In some ways this is ideal for a fixed installation as it can even cope with atmospheric refraction. Mentioned as it may be a route to a heavier mount at a similar cost. I have seen the results from very long exposures taken with this sort of set up based round an after market controller called LittleFoot.

One of the aspects of this area that has put me off this sort of area is the additional cost of a ccd camera suitable for very long exposures. Especially the larger ones.

There used to be a uk based astro sales / discussion forum about with a number of people on it that used this sort of equipment but it seems to have disappeared. Personally for that sort of outlay I would be thinking in terms of a very large fork mounted SCT with a refractor piggy backed on top of it. The optical specification of the latest line of SCT is rather impressive. I have only looked at the Celestron Edge but would assume that Meade are making something similar. Only problem is that the fork mounts seem to be disappearing in that direction. Sad.

John

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[perfrej]

John,

I would not go for AP mounts today as the technology is kind of dated. The 10Micron technology is far superior and the results and consistency are top notch. If the "remote" is remotely in your vocabulary you need to look at Paramount or 10Micron, or, possibly, ASA. As for steppers... With 16x micro stepping the error is non-existant. Besides, the steppers are geared down by huge factors so even a full or half step stepper is fairly accurate.

Pete,

The Gemini mount was on my list but got scratched the minute I realised what kind of controllers they have. It just doesn't hack it in my view.

/per

[ribuck]

I would have considered the Paramount MX, but it's out of my budget and and from what i have read, seems to lack some of the innovation of other new mounts( I could be wrong though).

At the moment i like the GM1000HPS, for it's price and some amazing features, but the one thing i could not see was nice cable management features like Paramount / ASA. That would have been a nice bonus.

[perfrej]

Actually, I wouldn't want cable routing in the mount. I always make a nice braided cable with everything in it and route it externally. Much better, and works!

/per

Old scope:

[Ajohn]

I don't think I would be going for Astrophysics either for other reasons - price. I already have a mount that might be described as "before astrophysics got hold of it". They did rework Meade mounts at one point. Mostly software plus worm wheel lapping to reduce the errors. That mount is very stable and in no way light weight. Here I see indications of buying a portable mount for a fixed installation.

True on steppers but they encourage relatively low gearing so the correction obtained that way isn't as good as it might be. The real limit on these types of drive is in that case the accuracy of the worm wheel and any additional gearing. With servo drive and encoders it all comes down to the encoder. Sometimes these are geared to the drive anyway.

I quickly looked at AstroPhysics spec's. The things these companies do to save a little money. They mention an aluminium worm wheel as if it's a virtue. Technology wise at a basic level these drives are all very similar.

John

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[ribuck]

I'm curious why the Paramount MX is so much more expensive than the GM1000HPS, especially seeing that it lacks some of the innovations of the GM1000HPS (e.g. thing like atmospheric refraction which are done in the mount on the GM1000HPS Vs the MX needing software), also the MX doesn't seem to have any balancing routine.

[jjongmans]

I have an ASA DDM60 Pro and it's a great mount. It's improved since the introduction (hard- and software) and I'm very happy with it. It is a bit above your budget of £6000. It's 7250 euro excl. VAT. So that's around £7000 incl. VAT for the Pro edition.

Setup is pretty simple and automated:

1) Polar align with laser

2) Balance

3) Tune motors with Autotune

4) Create 3-star pointing model (automated) for precise polar alignment and improve alignement.

5) Create all-sky pointing model (automated) for a permanent setup or tracking pointing model (also automated) for single object when using a mobile setup.

6) Shoot unguided images.

Only disadvantage of the ASA is that it needs a computer.

[ribuck]

Spoke to IanKing about my options based on my budget and my requirement for unguided tracking, and ian suggested that the GM1000HPS will probably be my best option, but apparently they are not easy to get hold of, as they are in short supply. I'm going to wait until Per gets his GM1000HPS at the end of the month, and wait for his feedback.

I'm sure it will be a superb mount, so can't wait to read his review.

[ribuck]

jjongmans, the DDM 60 Pro does look like a solid reliable mount, but i was disappointed that ASA hasn't built in a balancing routine, which i thing is very important, especially if you want to swap OTA's from time to time. also i watched a youtube video of someone doing the initial setup, with the motor Autotune and creating the pointing model and it just seemed very long winded, and didn't seem any quicker than creating a pointing model in EqAscom which i currently do with my HeQ5 Pro mount.

I guess it also comes down to price, with the GM1000HPS being about £1000 cheaper than the DDM 60.

[jjongmans]

The software has a balancing routine and with that you can balance very precise.

Do you have a link to the video's, because a creating a pointing model is automated with Sequence and PinPoint, so there's nothing more involved than one push of a button.

[ribuck]

hi jjongmans, I've posted the link below, there seems to be a few of them from the same person. Maybe i am misinterpreting the video, but i've watched a few of them where he is trying to create a pointing model, and ever after applying the pointing model it didn't seem very accurate, not to mention that the software crashed horribly on one of the video's.

So AutoSlew has a balance routine ? as i have not seen that advertised as one of the features. Also how does it calculate the atmospheric refraction ? Also you mention the use of PinPoint ?? Are you referring to the 3rd party software / catalogue. If so, is this included or additional cost ?

i'm not removing the DDM 60 form my list just yet, as i need to do more research.

[ollypenrice]

I know Per and Jonas are very happy with their 10 Microns. I'll comment on the Mesu.

It will not do unguided tracking because it has a small, slow PE. However, I would read on nevertheless. I've been using one for exactly a year and have logged several hundred hours of imaging time. Sub exposures lost to guiding error? Two, and probably my fault for letting a cable snag. Two lost subs in a year. You can guess that I like this mount and if you find this claim unbelieveable I quite understand. By the way, we are imaging at 2.4 metres focal length and routinely do half hour subs.

I like the Mesu because it is simple and has a very low computer dependency. It also has a massive payload and zero backlash, making it exceptionally competent in the wind. The Argo Navis handset works very well and getting started in the evening takes a couple of minutes. The routine; Power off, push mount towards alignment star by hand, centering it in finder. Power on, confirm alignment star on handset. Fire up PC, focus on alignment star, centre exactly, re-synch the handset, choose the target, GoTo and fire up PHD. You're imaging.

This mount really does work and the proprietory electronics (Argonavis and Servo Cat) are mature and spares are available.

Per and Jonas know their stuff and I've nothing to say against 10 Micron.

I wouldn't touch ASA myself. If Per finds the computer dependency too great then I know I would! I also followed in disbelief the long saga of ASA gettng the mount to work while their customers suffered. I think that's a bad way to do business.

Because I'm not an IT buff I like the Mesu and would make it my choice even if budget were not an issue. I do get to see lots of high end mounts here, though, and what is surprising is that so many of them do misbehave.

Jessun will soon be able to comment on his new technology AP, which should be interesting, though over budget.

Olly

[jjongmans]

This video is from May 2011, lot of things have changed since then. Since version 5.1.0.0 the software is very stable.

I have a permanent setup and have a 120+ points model. This model was created in 45 min fully automatic with Sequence (part of the DDM software).

With the introduction of the balancing tool and the Autotune feature, setting up the DDM is simple, even for mobile use.

I can assure you that pointing is within 10 arcmin and tracking is sub arcsec; around 0.3/0.4 arcsec for 20 minute subframes.

Check out the ASA Yahoo group.

[ribuck]

jjongmans, i guess check out the group, as the price is 7250 euro's which is £6006 just a fraction over £6k budget. I think it narrow my list down to 2 mounts now 10 micron GM1000HPS & ASA DDM 60. Are their any UK re-sellers for ASA ?

I'll check out the yahoo groups, and see if i can get more info.

[ribuck]

Hmm there dont seem to be any re-sellers in the UK, that just about kills the option of ASA for me, as i would have to pay expensive import tax.

Also, reading up on the unguided tracking, AutoSlew needs to use thier Sequence & MLTP software to achieve this, and those software in turn need both Maxim DL & PinPoint which are additional costs. For me this is also a killer, as you basically need 5 applications running for unguided imaging (Auto Slew, Sequence, MLTP, Maxim DL, Pinpoint)

It just doesn't seem very hassle free to me, as 5 programs means 5 more things to go wrong, well 4 as i would already be using MaximDL. Why can't ASA put all these programs into a single application ?

Just doesn't seem as straight forward as 10Micron which doesn't need a pc at all, much simpler if i just want to do some visual work.

[jjongmans]

It will be around 8700 incl. VAT

You only need Sequence to create an automated pointing file, after that you'll only need Autoslew to control the mount.

To create an automated pointing file you need to plate solve images, this is where Sequence will use Maxim (images) and PinPoint (plate solve). You can also create a manual pointing file, then you'll only need Autoslew.

So when you're up and running you only need:

Autoslew for the mount.

Maxim DL for the CCD

FocusMax for the focuser (optional)

[jjongmans]

MLTP isn't a program but a pointing file for a specific declination (object).

[jjongmans]

I can't edit my previous posts, so I'll keep posting new ones

The ASA is a dedicated mount for astrophotography, you'll never need its performance for visual use. With that in mind it isn't a problem that a PC is mandatory, because your CCD (Maxim DL), Focuser (FocusMax) and Observatory (CCDAutoPilot, CCD Commander, ACP) will also need software on a PC.

[ribuck]

And the winner is 10 Micron........

The price and the fact that there are no UK suppliers is a killer straight away....... Jjongmans, many thanks for your input on this thread.

Message to ASA ----------> Pull your finger out, UK is part of Europe you know, and you might want to check what the competition is selling for........lol

[jjongmans]

No problem, also a very fine mount!

[Jessun]

Jessun will soon be able to comment on his new technology AP, which should be interesting, though over budget.

It will start its days here as an old school mount - before the encoders are added if I think I need them. ASA and 10 Micron seem to be a step or two ahead in certain areas, but on my personal spec sheet this was the only one that fit the bill. More on that later, in another thread.

/Jesper