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New Atik 4 series

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17 replies to this topic

#1
antimorris

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I just saw Atik's announcement about their new 4 series. Nice to see the slimmer body aimed at hyperstar systems. I wonder how long it will be until they are available? What do you all think of them?
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Scopes: CPC0800XLT, Orion EON 80ED
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#2
dmahon

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Did they sell many 320E's? The new 4 series have similarly tiny pixels.

Mount: NEQ6
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#3
Sp@ce_d

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The 420 has Setpoint cooling for under a grand!.. I had almost settled on going for a 314L but now I'm wondering about the higher resolution of the 420....

- Second star to the right and straight on till morning
Obsy: Seletec Platypus/Firefly/AAG CloudWatcher Mounts: NEQ6, HEQ5 Pro (Rowan Belt Mod)  Scopes: SW80ED, WOZS66 APO, ST80, Coronado PST, Tal 100RS, WOZS71 ED, Esprit 80, C9.25(Moonlite) WO GT81 triplet
Camera's: Canon 1000D (Modded), SPC900NC (Flashed 880), QHY5, SX CoStar, 3 x Atik314L+ "The Triple Shooter", DMK21AU618.AS
Software: MaximDL, Nebulosity, RegiStar, CS3, PixInsight 1.8


#4
RikM

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A good 6-12 months before I can afford one but I was looking forward to a 314L plus as well. These new ones have got me thinking hard but the small pixel size is a puzzle. I am after increased sensitivity compared to my DSLR, so will the fatter pixels in the 314L plus be that much of an advantage over these new ones?
Rik
Skyliner 250PX; Explorer 150P; Televue Pronto; ST80; ES68°; Televue; Pentax XW; NEQ6 Pro; EQ3-2; AZ4; SXV-H9; QHY5; Canon 1000D: Sketches Deep Sky Images
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#5
riklaunim

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420L or Atik 320E have the same CCD, which is quite old, not Exview HAD like in 314L+. That means lower QE in the 320E/420L. The CCD in 450L is better, somewhere between 314L+ and those 320E/420L. If you use short focal refractors or hyperstar or things like a PowerNewtonian then you can think about getting those small-pixel cameras.

Note that higher resolution needs better guiding and longer exposures...

Equipment: SCT C14 * TSAPO65Q * ASI120MM * Atik 314L+ * and more :)

My astro website


#6
ollypenrice

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The 420 has Setpoint cooling for under a grand!.. I had almost settled on going for a 314L but now I'm wondering about the higher resolution of the 420....


You are taking 'better resolution' to mean smaller pixels? I don't worry about 'resolution' in that sense. This may matter in the daytime. At night I worry about what really gets resolved on the final image. The 314L has nothing to prove in this respect and will out perform, shall we say, the smaller, less sensitive, small pixel chip. I have have quite a lot of imaging time with the 314L and 320E and would go for the 314L any day.

However, small pixels, small body and big Hyperstar does have something to be said for it!!

Olly

Run Les Granges Astronomy Holidays, teach and learn imaging, SE France.  TEC140 apo on Avalon Liner FR. 2xTakahashi FSQ106 tandem on Mesu mount 200.  TeleVue Pronto, ZS66, 6 inch achro. Other mounts, Takahashi EM200, 2 x EQ6. TeleVue Gibraltar and TelePod. CCD; 2xAtik11000 full frame, SXVH36, Atik 320E, Lodestar, DMK21. Leica bins. This kit is co-owned owned with Tom O'Donoghue and Yves Van den Broek. Host 4 scope robotic shed. www.sunstarfrance.com

Isn't it great that amateurs can get so close to the universe?


#7
NickH

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314L agreed, every day of the week...though, like Olly, the temptation to hyperstar my C11 is now getting very strong
C11 (Lunar and planetary high res), TMB 105 F6.2 /ST102 (parallel deep sky imaging rig) , Vixen A80 MF (PST mod H-A front end), Atik 314L (Primary DSO cam), DSI-C (guider), Lumenera Skynyx 2-0 m (Solar and Planetary cam), EQ6 Pro mount (general dogsbody), Modded EOS (wide field and wide Deep Sky), pair of netbooks, lots of software and an observatory.

#8
riklaunim

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And for a hyperstar you can always choose something with bigger sensor :) It can handle APS-C, while new Atiks are max 2/3".

Equipment: SCT C14 * TSAPO65Q * ASI120MM * Atik 314L+ * and more :)

My astro website


#9
ncjunk

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I would go 314l as well, the pixel size and sensitivity are fantastic.
I am not totally convinced on these smaller pixel (with larger quantity of pixels) cameras. I know you could bin the sub to improve the sensitivity but no idea what the results etc would be.
I don't care about number of pixels its more about matching the focal lenth to the camera and objects you want to capture and the 314l covers the best of most worlds....at a price.

For galaxies only, a atik 16ic-s would be perfect (smaller ccd size). (they dont do these anymore do they?)

I will be very sad when amatuer astronomers start buying cameras because of number of pixels rather than looking at the noise, qe and pixel size.
8mega pixels has no benifit over a smaller camera if the object can fit on the smaller ccd using the same equipment. It then comes down to which pixels can gather the most information, least noise and at the best resolution.
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#10
angusb1

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One advantage I can see to the new Atik 450 is if you were wanting to use them with a FL of around 300mm. Then you are looking at 2.38 arcsecs/pixel as opposed to the 4.46 arcsecs/pixel you would get at the same FL with a 314.

So for people mainly using telephoto lenses at 200-400mm you would get a nicer plate scale but for a FL of 500-750mm it would seem that the 285 based cameras are more suited.

Only one advantage though, there are more factors than plate scale to consider.
"Some scientists find, or so it seems, that they get their best ideas when smoking; others by drinking coffee or whisky. Thus there is no reason why I should not admit that some may get their ideas by observing, or by repeating observations." Karl Popper

#11
NickH

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And for a hyperstar you can always choose something with bigger sensor :) It can handle APS-C, while new Atiks are max 2/3".


Hyperstar will probably happen at some point anyway...what CCD to stick on the front...is yet to be decided.. but this form factor is a boon
C11 (Lunar and planetary high res), TMB 105 F6.2 /ST102 (parallel deep sky imaging rig) , Vixen A80 MF (PST mod H-A front end), Atik 314L (Primary DSO cam), DSI-C (guider), Lumenera Skynyx 2-0 m (Solar and Planetary cam), EQ6 Pro mount (general dogsbody), Modded EOS (wide field and wide Deep Sky), pair of netbooks, lots of software and an observatory.

#12
Sp@ce_d

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I guess I'm still thinking as a DSLR imager. Still trying to get my head around using larger pixels. Things like square stars come to mind. I know the 314 has a great reputation but I still seem to get distracted by sensor size... a bit like aperture fever I guess! So for me, finding a CCD thats the right match for my 80ED is really what I'm looking for & something that will give me better star colour too?

- Second star to the right and straight on till morning
Obsy: Seletec Platypus/Firefly/AAG CloudWatcher Mounts: NEQ6, HEQ5 Pro (Rowan Belt Mod)  Scopes: SW80ED, WOZS66 APO, ST80, Coronado PST, Tal 100RS, WOZS71 ED, Esprit 80, C9.25(Moonlite) WO GT81 triplet
Camera's: Canon 1000D (Modded), SPC900NC (Flashed 880), QHY5, SX CoStar, 3 x Atik314L+ "The Triple Shooter", DMK21AU618.AS
Software: MaximDL, Nebulosity, RegiStar, CS3, PixInsight 1.8


#13
ollypenrice

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Square stars might seem likely in theory but they don't appear in reality. I image all the time with the large pixel Atik 4000s and a focally reduced Tak FSQ with focal length in the camera lens region at 328mm. It gives stars that satisfy me, at least.

http://stargazerslou...-129-hargb.html

Astrophotography is firstly about getting enough signal. When you have that you can sharpen. The craving for megapixels is largely bred into us by the manufacturers who have long used them as a synonym for quality, which they simply aren't. In astronomy megapixel DSLRs are roundly and unequivocally outperformed by CCD cameras. Most imagers dream of the 11 meg chip in its various incarnations and that has lots of big pixels. Now you're talking!

Olly

Edited by ollypenrice, 24 October 2011 - 01:29 PM.

Run Les Granges Astronomy Holidays, teach and learn imaging, SE France.  TEC140 apo on Avalon Liner FR. 2xTakahashi FSQ106 tandem on Mesu mount 200.  TeleVue Pronto, ZS66, 6 inch achro. Other mounts, Takahashi EM200, 2 x EQ6. TeleVue Gibraltar and TelePod. CCD; 2xAtik11000 full frame, SXVH36, Atik 320E, Lodestar, DMK21. Leica bins. This kit is co-owned owned with Tom O'Donoghue and Yves Van den Broek. Host 4 scope robotic shed. www.sunstarfrance.com

Isn't it great that amateurs can get so close to the universe?


#14
Sp@ce_d

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Square stars might seem likely in theory but they don't appear in reality. I image all the time with the large pixel Atik 4000s and a focally reduced Tak FSQ with focal length in the camera lens region at 328mm. It gives stars that satisfy me, at least.

http://stargazerslou...-129-hargb.html


Ooh I missed that one. Now thats exactly what I mean by star colour. Beautiful. I know good processing skills are needed but the data has to be there in the first place and the Atik 4000 has bigger pixels than the 314. So if pixel size matters why should Atik come out with something that seems to fit into an even smaller niche? I guess I need to understand how hyperstar works.

I think in summary for my budget/needs the 314 is still the way to go then.

- Second star to the right and straight on till morning
Obsy: Seletec Platypus/Firefly/AAG CloudWatcher Mounts: NEQ6, HEQ5 Pro (Rowan Belt Mod)  Scopes: SW80ED, WOZS66 APO, ST80, Coronado PST, Tal 100RS, WOZS71 ED, Esprit 80, C9.25(Moonlite) WO GT81 triplet
Camera's: Canon 1000D (Modded), SPC900NC (Flashed 880), QHY5, SX CoStar, 3 x Atik314L+ "The Triple Shooter", DMK21AU618.AS
Software: MaximDL, Nebulosity, RegiStar, CS3, PixInsight 1.8


#15
ollypenrice

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Partly it's price. The 4000 is expensive. (Tell me about it!). But at short FL and bombarded with light from an F2 Hyperstar the small pixel chips might well strut their stuff. The truth is there is more more theory than practice in lots of camera discussions and I work only, entirely, on practice. (That's cos I don't understand the theory!!)
Olly

Edited by ollypenrice, 24 October 2011 - 05:34 PM.

Run Les Granges Astronomy Holidays, teach and learn imaging, SE France.  TEC140 apo on Avalon Liner FR. 2xTakahashi FSQ106 tandem on Mesu mount 200.  TeleVue Pronto, ZS66, 6 inch achro. Other mounts, Takahashi EM200, 2 x EQ6. TeleVue Gibraltar and TelePod. CCD; 2xAtik11000 full frame, SXVH36, Atik 320E, Lodestar, DMK21. Leica bins. This kit is co-owned owned with Tom O'Donoghue and Yves Van den Broek. Host 4 scope robotic shed. www.sunstarfrance.com

Isn't it great that amateurs can get so close to the universe?


#16
johnrt

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The 314l+ has nothing to prove - search around and you will find world class images produced with it with a variety of different setups. They outperform their price bracket by miles.

You would have to prise mine out of my "cold dead fingers" to quote a famous man.

+1 for the 314l+ over these new cameras.

Edited by johnrt, 24 October 2011 - 06:35 PM.

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#17
blackparticle

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If small pixels were the big thing then I'm fairly sure a lot more people would be using the SXVF-M8C although this only came in the OSC format.

A picked one up second hand for roughly the same price as a modded DSLR. I'm glad I did as it's opened up the world of M42 lenses but I have to say, even with a 66 imaging at f/6 - 400mm takes a lot more time and effort than it would with something like the 314L. A focal reducer for these small pixel cams is a must unless you are willing to put in at least 3 - 4x the amount of time in on your choice of target.

So, the plus point is that I do get increased resolution. Negatives are that the M8C effectively turns an f/6 scope into an f/12 scope when compared to bigger pixel cams like a DSLR or 314L.. Also my guiding has to be a lot more accurate. In reality, the cam effectively halves the 'reliable' guiding times of what I could achieve with a 6+ micron chip.

I'm sure the new 450L will have its place for Hyperstar owners and extreme wide-field specialists.. or perhaps 66/72 owners with very forgivingly still and dark skies.

Atik should also have a think about a small-ringed / dovetail mounting system and lens adapter kit for it though unless they want to rely on Geoptik to provide the lens interfaces and I don't think Geoptik do an M42 or Pentax-K mount version of their T>Lens adapter system.

What I want is a monochrome 4mp version of the ICX285AL. :D
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#18
riklaunim

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Shops with photo-accessories should have something like this:

Posted Image

Posted Image

It has a tripod mounting so you can catch the lens + cam and put it on a mount.

Edited by riklaunim, 25 October 2011 - 11:26 AM.

Equipment: SCT C14 * TSAPO65Q * ASI120MM * Atik 314L+ * and more :)

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